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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Four cars and a dedicated test car, that's doing things properly pictureshowman.

Like Glenn, I'm keen to know how well your big frame box works and whether it's just the dog kit in the small frame box that makes the difference or is there more to it?

Another option Glenn is to initially just use a type 2 sport gear set and then change to a CR kit if you need to and once you understand the options for CR kits ( dog and syncro ). I see a Swift Sport rally car on TM with a dog box fitted. I asked the seller what the kit was but he avoided the question. If you want to try sequential then ultimately I guess a dog kit is the way to go.

1600 sedans come up every once in a while but mostly they just get crushed as there's little demand for the parts. PickAPart had one in Chch about a year ago but it got crushed before I got around to getting the box. I tried to get them to remove the box for me but they didn't want to bother with that. Probably easier just to buy a kit from Dave.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:06 pm 
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If you are looking for reliability then the large frame is the go. I've only broken a driveshaft on that setup, it was probably chinese. Dave will be rebuilding my dogbox soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Location: Napier
swift12 wrote:
it seems like if you Mis Shift the small frame dog box you might be in trouble.... 8-[


I think if you mis-shift any gearbox you will be in trouble :D plenty of Youtube videos with people doing "The Money Shift" (i.e shifting back into first instead of third)

swift12 wrote:
now I am seriously considering the large frame without dog gears. perhaps the M factory gearset?
Just waiting to hear back from Dave. 8-[

I think ill have a hard time here in NZ finding a g16 swift sedan bell housing!!! looked around but its like they do not exist....are they called anything else?

getting a swift sport box is easy.

cheers Glenn.


I have an adapter plate for a G1600 gearbox as I was looking at options to upgrade the gearbox in the GTI.
1600GTI on here was working on a kit for a Swift Sports box conversion, not sure if he has finished it but worth talking to.
If money was no object, I'd run the newer Sport Box with a Dog gear set and LSD.

https://www.facebook.com/suzukiperformance/
He is also selling some forged pistons but they are oversized at 76mm.

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Location: NZ
I wasnst going to say it here until I got it....but I ordered the Kalmar/sqs dog kit for the small frame box. Yes they are the same.

I had Andrew Spittle comment that when they used it for two years on the track it was awesome. That was a private conversation on messenger. He highly recommended it.

So I wasn' t going to be a punching bag for everyone's different ideas. But here I am doing it again. Punch away....lol. 8-[
I'll take one for the team....I will write all about in a month when it's all back together and going.

I'm going to run the 4.384 FD. yes it won't have a super high top speed...it should get there quick though. The calculator shows 194 at 8600....187 at 8300 and 180 at 8000.
I believe we won't hit the limiter on many tracks in NZ. Maybe Taupo....if it can get there... 8-[
So we are going for acceleration. The spittles ran a 4.214 but then they also had 160 hp.

I know I know Flame on me....lol. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:30 am 
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Sounds like you'll have the exact same kit as I'm running. As I said before, it great to use. For circuit, I'm sure, with regular maintenance, it will be perfectly reliable. If you do manage to break something then replace parts are available so it's probably not the end of the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:35 am 
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Thanks for the nice positive comment Sam. Yes....I can get parts. I'll look after the bearings and oil.
I'll remove and filter the oil after each event....keep it clean....then re use it a few times. Replace often. I'll shout this new box 4 new top quality bearings....right from the start.
We will try to look after it while driving too.

The ratios I run now in both 2nd and 3rd will be almost the same in the dog box. They were awesome....hence the decision to stick with the same FD.

I'm going to sell off some of my parts to help fund it. Two 4.389 final drives. My hybrid gears. A brand spanking new genuine 2nd gear and a very lightly used genuine low speed engagement hub.

I could keep this box as a back up....but once the dog box is in....we won't change it at an event...we will fix it at home if needed. I'll keep my spare case and other parts that I can use in the dog box for sure. All needle rollers, retainer plates, shims etc.

Cheers! G


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Here's a cheap option if you want to take a dollar each way : https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/blacktown/engine-engine-parts-transmission/swift-gti-g16-sedan-gearbox-conversion-/1168209162


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Location: NZ
Thanks Sam. It's not too cheap by the time you add in a flywheel, clutch, axles, mounts, close ratio gears, a cable shift and an LSD. add shipping, ietf fee plus GST on the lot. Probably new synchro rings if you go m factory or a dog kit and it's a lot more time and greater cost still than the small frame dog box. In a transaxle I'd rather ditch the synchros so I could run the right oil for the LSD rather than have an oil that suits neither...I think the small frame is worth the risk for our humble NA power beast still.....lol 8-[


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am 
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That's right, it's the freight and GST that's the killer for something like that. The freight will be more than the gearbox is worth. It would end up being over a 1k for a housing and a set of driveshafts. Chances are you could buy a complete swift sedan here for less than that. I'd buy a spare housing if I could one locally but it's not worth freighting one across the Tasman.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:16 am 
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Location: NZ
yes Aussie can at times be quite pricey for freight...the states huge on a lot of things and the cheapest often is Great Britain !!! go figure.

Id love the sequential frankenbox....but with me doing it...10K...more like 12k. Overkill for this car.
Even the dog box small frame is probably overkill but it will help the engine stay right on the power while hopefully addressing some of the weak points of the box. Darn sight less to do $ wise....Im not getting all caught up in this forced induction thing where the boxes just die a quick death.....wont be doing turbo.

we will try to mitigate other weak points the best we can.

here is my mark 2 gearshift experiment. the centre section will be an 11mm piece of stainless steel.
it will run in an H gate Im developing. hope to avoid mis shifting while retaining the quick action of the dog box. nothing ventured nothing gained! 8-[


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:15 pm 
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Location: Napier
It will be a weapon on the track, bring on the confused looks by the Honda owners!

Acceleration out of the corners is used more often than top speed, getting there faster is more important than having the best top speed.
I think you have made a good choice and will do you well in this car.

As you fine tune the car and eeek out a few more ponies, it will be usable power with this gearbox.
Good work.

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:22 pm 
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wow nice comments guys...cheers! making me feel warm and fuzzy about the D. cheers!

yes Michael..I will really love to see the honda guys looking bemused....its why I do this!!!!

here is a honda b16 owner after being passed by a suzuki 1300.... :shock:

If we blow the box up then everyone can say we told you so [-X
But looking at the figures I have enough left over even if I put a gripper in the new small frame and sell the Suzuki LSD to build another motor up with change....(I have a block, a ready to go head, 4 new max speeding rods, 4 pistons ready to machine all except the pistons through buying the donor motor)
So if i get a crank from the states on this trip.....010 ground under supplied with new shells then I can build a second motor. keep it as a spare or sell it to an offroad guy if it looks like the missus is going to divorce me. 8-[


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Who is absolutely sure the g16 pump is better than a g13B pump.
Do they flow more? The g 13b dohc pump is less diameter but has a thicker rotor!
My engine guy says I should not need more pressure or flow if the engine is built right.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:46 am 
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Been a bit quiet. On a London trip. I have invested in a larger cooler for the oil and AN 10 oil lines. I found a page from setrab coolers stating a small high performance car should have AN 10 lines and a minimum of a 235 matrix 19 row cooler. It's a better cooling but more restriction than a 115 matrix 25 row cooler. I have gone for the latter. The length of the tubes is the biggest cause of restriction for a given number of tubes. Both can do a car of 160 to 190 hp approx.
I opted for less cooling but better flow. This is due mainly to the fact too much cooling will be a bad thing as well. Given the fact the G13b is not cooled any cooling will be better. I initially got a 235 matrix 10 row....that is not recommended but is great for transmissions and power steering plus motor bike engines. Plenty of pressure drop too!

I have researched a lot...some guys have drilled a relief hole in the sandwich plate to bypass oil all the time preventing pressure drop but at the same time when the thermostat is closed and forcing all oil through the cooler it will still flow through and cool. (And the small relief hole will still be bypassing a small amount of oil...Just enough to reduce any pressure loss through the cooler)


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Location: NZ
guys...advice if you have experience....

NDC bearings....genuine....or king race bearings.

NDC I have ....cheapest....

genuine...mid price and i can get mains in the graded sizes

king race..one size and we have them but once i open the pack...they are mine...and bloody expensive. three times the cost of NDC...twice the cost of genuine.

but I have run one big end already...they were clevite....cannot say that was the issue though.

The engine builder would like to use the king bearings...they are the tri metal ones. sure look nice. but clearance might be the overriding factor...I do not want low pressure. 8-[

The issue is clearance....I had lower oil pressure once the oil was hot....the mains were nearly at limits at 2.2 thou...the limit being 2.3 thou. normal spec is .0008 to .0016. engine builder thinks that tight for a race motor...
Yes I have a brand new genuine japanese made G16A oil pump to go in it.

any experience greatly appreciated. I have the tunnel sizes and crank sizes...they are all very accurate...measured by the engine builder...Im about to look at the genuine sizes to see where they lie.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:16 am 
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Location: NZ
anyone?

the NDC are a no go...2.75 thou!

now looking at genuine graded


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:35 pm 
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I'm running ACL race for both big ends and mains. They're working well. I've never tried King.

I would have thought that the top end of the production spec would be about right clearance wise. ACL ( probably King as well ) make +.001 versions of the bearings and you can mix these with std to achieve the closest clearance.

Tighter clearances are fine provided your crank journals are well finished, the crank is perfectly balanced and your alignment is good.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:34 pm 
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top end of production spec is .0023

NDC bearings are .00275. too much for an aluminium block where the oil clearance will be probably up around .0004 when its warm. Im aiming for .0002

The book figures don't make sense to me...when you run the figures every single combination of bearings yields less than minimum clearances.

I even have the sizes given to me by the engine builder...of the tunnels and the crank.

4 B tunnels and 1 C
crank is a 3,2,2,2,2

its blue and yellow shells....all combos in the manual yield clearances of approx .0002 to .0004...obviously something is wrong.

yet checking the NDC shells today have a confirmed size of 2.006mm wall thickness.
based on my tunnels and crank sizes it should be under a thou clearance but when torqued down and measured its 2.75 thou!!! I just don't get it. the caps and block are round..they do not look worn...nothing has spun in them....this is doing my head in.

the king shells are the race series pMax...size listed as 1.999mm...so thats not going to work.

I just do not know which genuine shells to order...this is getting bloody expensive now...


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:28 am 
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I hadn't looked at my book, I was going off what you'd put in your previous post indicating that the maximum was .0016. The advice I've always followed is to aim for .001 per inch of journal.

If you look in the ACL online catalog for the G13B you'll see the min, max journal and tunnel sizes. That might help you work out where the measuring has gone wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:48 am 
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Hi Sam. I'm not saying the measuring is wrong....the tunnels and crank have been measured....any shell of any make and type should give an acceptable clearance or in fact even too tight but when torqued into the main tunnels the clearance is .00275.

Here is a measurement from the engine builder....difference between crank and tunnel....1585" or 4.0259mm
The NDC bearings are 2.006 mm thick in the centre. Twice 2.006 is 4.012. 4.0259 minus 4.012 is .0139mm or too blinking tight (.00054 or just over half a thou).....yet it's 2.75 thou. Just does not make sense.


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