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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:40 am
Posts: 667
Location: NZ
oh Damn!...I feel your pain. :x

Our group A chip takes it to 8600 rpm but best power is below that...I really need to limit myself to 8300.
yes it is a bit frightening that a forged piston let go when the Honda P29 Piston is cast... 8-[

Hope mine don't part company and make friends with the head...that would suck.
High compression forged pistons are $$$$$


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:38 am
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Location: Amberley
Looking at the dyno graph suggests anything beyond 7,700 is costing time. In reality gear shifts after peak torque are probably costing time. I have my limit set at 7,900 even though we're still making power beyond that but our peak torque is at 6,000.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:40 am 
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hi Sam. i have to rev higher than peak torque as the engine drops out of the rev range it needs to be in with the way it is set up to perform. best to stay above 6k in each gear but change maybe at 8k. look after the engine a bit.

I am asking questions about a big frame box conversion just to compare apples with apples.

can anyone tell me if the new swift axles need modification? also i have to modify the half shaft on the right side? how is that done?
a new rear mount needs fabrication...is that all as far as mounting goes?
does the bell housing need welding up anywhere and new relocation holes drilled.
does the 1600 flywheel need modifying to fit...do I have to use a 1600 clutch...obviously i guess as the input shaft is different. I will need to mod the starter position?

just need to do all the sums...a new suzuki gearbox if more bullet proof set up well will last the distance i can sell off the small frame stuff i have as it all still has value to offset the cost...im not interested in having a back up box...id never take it to the track and change it....if i broke the large one then id just fix it rather than refit the smaller one...chances of breaking it are less.

I have two 4.389 final drives...a suzuki sport clutch type LSD for the small frame..a new 2nd gear engagement hub done one run...a new suzuki genuine 2nd gear. a set of hybrid 3/4/and 5 close ratio gears...two cases...and all the other gears plus a set of new bearings....Id sell the lot if i went to the hassle of the large frame.

comments? don't worry about costs I'm working around that one and wether or not its worth it on this car....there are guys worried about winning at all costs and those that like modding, improving...seeing what we can do with it....Im one of the latter. Having said that once done we would like to able to use it without breaking all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:06 am 
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Location: Amberley
Yes, theory says that you'll generate max acceleration at peak torque but that's peak torque at the wheels so the car will generate more torque at the wheels at 8,000 rpm in 2nd than it will at 6,250 in 3rd because of the gearing difference even though the engine is producing more torque at 6,250.

When I decided to get a club car again I'd intended building a GTi from a road so I bought a big frame box to use. I then bought a used rally car and have continued to run the small frame dog box that was in it. If I ever break that then I'll fit the big frame box. The big frame box came from DMWDave and is ready to install, not that I have. I'll post some photos showing what's been done to the mounts and bell housing later in the day.

Finding a wreaked 1600 sedan would be like looking for hens teeth but given the numbers of imports lying around then you can't help but wonder whether any of the cultus models from the same era used that box.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:26 am 
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Location: NZ
yes Id like to see the box conversion Sam.
and yes now I have found out its a G16 box and not the box from an m16 (i did not understand the difference) I wonder how easy it will be to find the right box....then the conversion...etc etc...
perhaps the small frame box with the dog gear set might still be the easiest way to get a more reliable box going. I realise it will still have some of the inherent disadvantages of the small frame box...the gear teeth size, the input shaft size...the small bearings.etc etc...but the weakest parts the synchro, the engagement hubs will be gone...these are the things affecting shift speed especially on the downshift...totally hopeless for a car meant to be racing. The rear bearing retainer bolts can be locktited in and better bolts used. Im not sure...I guess i already have a LSD thats working...two small frame boxes and the changeover would take a day...plus I have made half the new gear shift mechanism. also Im not turbo nor will i be and I don't rally the car over jumps etc. The drive shafts worry me a little....


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:03 am 
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Location: Brisbane
The gearbox is always going to be the Archilles heal of the GTi
If I was starting from scratch I would go the Sport box conversion wth the Close ratio gear set
Billet flywheel Clutch LSD
You would then have far more reliability & not have to be as gentle as we have to with the GTI box constantly having to replace 2nd gears & driveshafts


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:25 am 
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Location: NZ
hi jasStv.

can you tell me if thats the std gti 2nd gear or a Dog second gear...also where does the driveshaft break?

on the sport box...it would need a swift sedan box 1600 right? There is nothing avail in NZ as far as I can work out...at least nothing for sale...the "sport box" still needs the 1600 sedan case right? the M16 box won't fit. the close ratio M factory gears are still synchro gears and from what I can tell the swift cup guys still used to break those gearboxes fairly easily. I know one karter here who's father gave up after the third swift sport box was trashed.

If i bought Daves mod by the time it got here and the NZ customs had had their lick of the cone...the shipping had their lick and the exchange rate had theirs Daves conversion would still run me truckloads without even looking at the 2.6 k of m factory gears.

Now you run NA don't you Steve? What power again? I was just thinking of the mark 2 box with all its frailties with 124HP ATW...no rallying...no turbo and a dog kit might last a season before the bearings needed refreshing etc. At this stage the big frame box will take a lot more time and twice as much money initially....but i hear what you are saying!!!...sometimes not taking the leap initially will cost far more in the end...been there done that....MANY TIMES.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Location: Amberley
Here are a few photos of the big frame box and associated bits:

First the assembled box ( about 6kg heavier than a GTi box ):

Attachment:
IMG_4393.JPG
IMG_4393.JPG [ 1.48 MiB | Viewed 36 times ]


The drive shafts:

Attachment:
IMG_4390.JPG
IMG_4390.JPG [ 1.89 MiB | Viewed 35 times ]


The shifter and cables:

Attachment:
IMG_4391.JPG
IMG_4391.JPG [ 1.46 MiB | Viewed 39 times ]


Billet flywheel:

Attachment:
IMG_4394.JPG
IMG_4394.JPG [ 2.24 MiB | Viewed 36 times ]


Driveshaft bracket:

Attachment:
IMG_4396.JPG
IMG_4396.JPG [ 2.16 MiB | Viewed 35 times ]


Mods to the bellhousing:

Attachment:
IMG_4398.JPG
IMG_4398.JPG [ 1.55 MiB | Viewed 52 times ]


There's a couple of places where extra material has been welded in to adapt the bell housing. From re-reading the thread about this mod it sounds like Cultus/Baleno G16B cars have a small frame box so it's only the 1600 sedan that has the required box. The 1800 Baleno has a large frame box but I'm guessing the bell housing is different and too hard to adapt.

Definitely more options for gear kits, SQS do a dog kit, m factory for cheaper synco kits. Plenty of options for diffs. My one has a Monster sport diff, Gripper make them plus others.

Don't know what they're like to use. I see PictureShowman uses both big and small frame boxes so he could probably give you some feedback as to why he persists with a small frame box.

You could do this conversion yourself but I decided that it was more grief than it was worth. I intended to just buy a kit from Dave ( ie flywheel, housings etc ) but ended up buying a used box he had and getting the diff fitted.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 857
Location: Brisbane
We have 145hp at the wheels running the GTi original gears & ratio,s with a 4.4 diff & genuine Suzy Sport clutch LSD

We rev ours to 9500rpm & have the Adaptronic E420c ECU ( soft limiter set to 9000rpm)

We use genuine Suzuki 2nd gears when we replace them

Outer CV,s are what break. Dave does make an upgraded driveshaft with I think Magna outer CVs

The dog box is definitely stronger but a new beast to use

If you have been gentle on a sincro box you have to learn to be more aggressive with gear changes If you lag between shifts you can risk breaking the gears. Sam7 can comment on this

Purely from a financial point of view given you already have many small frame gearbox items it is probably worth going that route initially


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Posts: 667
Location: NZ
thanks for the update Steve and awesome pics Sam. thank you both.

I bought a new low speed engagement hub and a new gen suzuki 2nd gear. Its the close ratio 3/4/and 5 that I'm worried about and the sticking synchro. we have the plate type suzuki LSD too.

If you saw the video of my driving before the "blow up" you would see that I'm not "kind" (my mate Blake told me that) to the gearbox so Id have no problem being DIRECT and forceful with a dog box...Id prefer to drive that way. My boy drives the same. Being gentle costs time. Im not saying I'm an idiot that does not understand how to make your gear survive...I did that all the time when involved in off roading and I fly 320 million dollar aircraft so I'm a tune to operating machinery BUT...I don't really want to rely on brakes and then ease into gear to allow synchro to catch up...boom!...I just want it in gear!

All this research has led me to this...the big frame is definitely the way to go....if you have money, time and resources.
If you want to drop your box...upgrade it in a day...stick your suzuki LSD in it and stick it back in your car with no issues on what oil to run as you have no synchro's to worry about and that you have low NA horsepower, don't jump the car and not going to get a turbo then a small frame dog box is the way to go.

Even Dattman said at some stage "For a lightweight NA club car on tarmac a close ratio small frame box is perfectly fine, large frame is way overkill"

everyones comment has led me to this. I blame you all!...lol. :lol:

what I will do...is put in QUALITY bearings....high tensile quality bolts on the retaining plate with locktite, run good oil and make sure the gear shift is well adjusted and accurate.

Thanks for the help.

Everyone has helped me to come to that conclusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:46 pm 
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The SQS dog box is certainly no beast to use. It's light to change, very quick and positive.

If I thought it was going to be 100% reliable then I'd ditch the big frame box and continue to use it. When you compare the two boxes, the big frame box is far stronger in all areas: better mounting, stronger housing, bigger drive shafts, bigger gears etc. For what I do, rally, hill climb and sealed sprints, I'm pretty sure I'll end up using it in the not too distant future.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Posts: 857
Location: Brisbane
Sounds like the plan is now in place

Great feedback from Sam that the SQS dog box is user friendly

I have always been jealous watching the European hill climb vidoe's. It seems every car that competes has an ultra close ratio gearbox

They certainly transform the GTi. I am sure you have watched the Lander video's. The close ratio gearbox allowed him to have a narrow power band with something like 160hp from an NA 1.3lt

Looking forward to your 1st video on the track with all your mods


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Location: NZ
Thanks guys...yes we have a plan rightly or wrongly....but what I do know is that my hybrid 5th at .94 on a 4.389 final drive still sucks. Great way to go nowhere after 4th which was 168km/hr at 8100 rpm. 5th just went brrrrrr......at 5500 rpm.

So the big D is the final drive.

Now the box is set up for rally but the taller final drives are good for track. Namely the 4.214 and the 4.384. Top speed around 203kmhr on the 4.214 at 8600 rpm. Not likely to do that. Would like to stay closer to 8000 and probably won't see much above that in 5th. The 4th gear speeds at 8300 max are 160 to 167. Then at least 5th can be taken and be useful.

I'm leaning toward the 4.384 and go for acceleration....and a totally useable 5th. Max speed at 8000 in 5th 180 km/hr. I know that's perfect for manfield. Taupo won't max it. Probably not good at Hampton downs? Never been there. What's Pukekohe like?

Now just got to get my engine back....hope it's ok.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:33 am 
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How did you get on with your crank? Was the knife edged one no good or is that the one you're grinding?


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Hi Sam.
The knife edged one is the way I bought it...the machine shop is going to crack test and measure it...if ok polish it....then balance it.

But there is a big BUT!...DMW dave answered my PM and is encouraging me to forget the small frame box so Im back looking at that issue...then it will be a different flywheel to balance....so the machine shop is going to wait for me...the single rod max speeding has made will be here in a few days so they can use that after measuring of course.

hey on that note....low oil pressure? then why are all my other bearings perfect in every way...even the ones furthest from the pump? Im smelling a rat with that number one rod????

I was going to buy a ground one .010 under fro the states...with bearings...$450 kiwi...to make up the spare engine i now have...maybe...still tossing up.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:39 pm 
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I guess you won't be dynoing again but it would be interesting to see what difference the knife edging makes.

I would agree regarding that rod, sounds like the trouble started with that big end so it would be nice to pin point the cause.

One of Dave's billet flywheels would be a good thing to have regardless of which box. I suspect the boxes can be debated until the cows come home and there's probably no right answer. If you're really weight conscious and don't mind regular maintenance then I'm sure the small frame will do the job. I know I'd go for the big frame box but I expect poor surfaces and lots of bumpy low speed corners that will kill a small frame box.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:09 pm 
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A big end bearing wasn't put in wrong, was it?

_________________
If "X" is an Unknown quantity, and a Spurt is a drip under pressure, then an "EXPERT" is an "Unknown Drip Under Pressure".
Why dont they just call it "Womenapause" instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:37 am 
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Pictureshowman, in an earlier post you said you run both big and small frame boxes. Is that just a case of using what you have or is there a reason why you still use both? I guess I'd would have assumed that once you'd built up a big frame box that you'd be unlikely to go back?


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:50 am 
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I have multiple cars and its the only way to keep DMW Dave afloat and living in the style he is accustomed. I have two large frame boxes, one is std with Suzuki plate lsd, the other is a super close ratio with 5.1 FD and Cusco lsd and first gear is 2.5. I also have std GTi gearbox with Plate LSD and 4.4 FD and close ratio dog box that I guess are the same ratios as you mentioned with a 4.1 FD and plate LSD. I have spare dogbox gearset for that one. I do also have another SS Sport box as a spare for use in a turbo car I am slowly building. So in all I have four cars in the shed but I can change boxes from small to large frame and reciprocal in one car. That one I have also tried the Ikeya Formula sequential shifter on and am still refining the changes. Ikeya was originally designed for EVO6 but the gate changes are similar and throw length is adjustable. The car is used as a test bed.

I hope you can understand all of that.

_________________
If "X" is an Unknown quantity, and a Spurt is a drip under pressure, then an "EXPERT" is an "Unknown Drip Under Pressure".
Why dont they just call it "Womenapause" instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:29 pm 
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Location: NZ
so picture showman...Dave is recommending a large frame box for me...does your small frame dog box last? have you done much with it? You said you like the small frame box the best??
it seems like if you Mis Shift the small frame dog box you might be in trouble.... 8-[

now I am seriously considering the large frame without dog gears. perhaps the M factory gearset?
Just waiting to hear back from Dave. 8-[

I think ill have a hard time here in NZ finding a g16 swift sedan bell housing!!! looked around but its like they do not exist....are they called anything else?

getting a swift sport box is easy.

cheers Glenn.


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