Our little cultus racer

Post the details of your Suzuki build progress
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Howsie13
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Napier

I sincerely hope you get to the bottom of this soon.
A Kiwi learning to fly in a Mk1.
swift12
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Location: NZ

Me too!
gtpswift
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Location: Australia

How are you measuring oil pressure? Do you really have a problem or could it be the gauge lying?
GTP
swift12
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Location: NZ

ok so im tired but i did some trouble shooting today...
Im still not sure.

I put a Ryco filter on the other day when i put the thinner oil in...thats one change.
6 days ago I took the accumulator and the oil cooler out of the system and spun the little filter back on....I was using mobil one filters. But i ran out of them.
I got the same result as with the accumulator and oil cooler on so I concluded they were not an issue.

today Nick read the accumulator while I sat in the car and read the ECU oil pressure and compared it to the gauge. The ECU and gauge read with 5 psi of each other. I took off the oil block and bled it to ensure it wasn't getting air blockage and that made no difference.

On a hot rev....accumulator (pump side of filter) read 72 psi. Gauge read 52 psi and the ECU read 55 psi.
The gauge and ECU are reading from the normal oil pressure sender port which is after the filter.

Either its leaking down inside the engine too much reducing pressure after the filter or the filter is suspect....I dont understand why the Accumulator reads a much higher pressure so obviously the pump is pumping and changing the oil pressure relief won't do a thing but if the bearings were buggered why such good idle pressure? and surely the accumulator would not reach 72 psi???

so Im wondering if the ryco filter is creating a 20 psi drop???....Im going to try an actual oil pressure gauge tomorrow taken off from the oil pressure port....then Im going to spin a large cap filter on and try.
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Sam7
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The sender units won't be super accurate bits of tech so with a 3 psi difference I think it's reasonable to assume that it's a fairly accurate pressure in the oil gallery.

The filter being a restriction and raising the oil pressure is a given but I have no idea of what the expected amount would be. Probably the cheapest/easiest test is to slap a bigger filter on and see what difference it makes. Best outcome, the increased flow increases the pressure in the gallery and problem solved, maybe. Worst outcome it makes no difference but you're one step further.

If it does increase the pressure then you'd still be asking why so much pressure drop with the trick small filter.
swift12
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yes Sam...i am at my wits end for sure. today I put a pressure gauge on the oil gallery. it showed a 12 psi difference cold and more hot. Im sure that might be normal as the oil heats...it gets more liquid.
the gauge showed that the other gauges sitting in the car seem accurate.

now i go about getting a different filter on. Im going to try a K and N HP1003. its larger than the stock OEM one and a lot bigger than the poxy ryco one.

after that ill know if pressure is any different.

then its thicker oil and because I cannot be bothered taking the sump off as I dont believe shimming the oil pressure relief valve will do a bloody thing...(because the accusump is showing good pressure) ill mod one of my sump plugs and stick the oil temp sender I have bought in there. yes no good for racing really but we need some data.

if those two things dont work then im ####ed.
swift12
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sump is off....fitting a bosch oil temp sender. while its out shimming the oil pressure relief but dont really think it will help. tomorrow...15w50 motul.....new filter...then test.
GTI CAPPO
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and all your problems will be gone tomorrow after that =D>
GTI CAPPO
swift12
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GTI...like your enthusiasm and confidence....wish i had it!
Henk
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Location: Netherlands

Hello guys,

I'm by no means an engine expert, but I've seen some from the inside at least.

You have a very strange problem and I thougt it maybe the balls wich are pressed in the crank to block off the oil drill passages. If the crank cracks in the area around the ball ,under heavy load there could be an oil leak there.

In high revving engines the balls are removed and replaced with screws, to prevent getting lose because of vibrations and deformation/cracking of the crankshaft.

This might explain why the pressureloss is only present at high RPM, because of the G-forces of the oil in the spinning crankshaft the oil pressure is very high in the crankjournals and could be forcing its way out through a crack.

By the way your car looks great and I love seeing some NA spirit!

Best of luck with your troubleshooting

Henk
swift12
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Thanks for the idea Henk and welcome to my Build blog.

Hey its a knifed edged balanced crank that has had the balls removed and the grub screws put in and then peened over I believe.

But there was developments today.

1. More fuel pressure issues....I believe because of the silly routing of the return line initially into the main tank instead of the surge tank I have killed the main pump....Today blown fuse...just after fuel pressure all over the place and squealing. Tuner thinks I ran it dry and or cavitation has dry run it and killed it...got really hot. Bugger. Only Idle so ok there.

2. Rerouted back to standard tank setup...reset fuel pressure...now runs great...will just keep fuel tank full until I can reset the surge tank setup with a new pump.

3. Oil pressure....So did quite a few things...one or several things may have contributed to the result.

1. shim of 60 thou under the oil pressure relief valve.
2. 15w50 motul ( extract of gold i think....this stuff is expensive)
3. K and N Filter looks the same size as the ryco but the holes in the top of it are 1mm bigger in diameter however i concluded this would only be the OUT pressure to the accumulator and would not affect the IN pressure to the bearings. That does not mean though that this filter does not flow better than the Ryco. It may very well do.

Results.
Previously....Accumulator (after pump along with cooler and before oil filter)
Cold Idle.....68 psi....Hot rev to 7000 RPM.....72
..................OIL pressure to bearings (ecu and very accurate)
Cold idle ...62...........Hot rev to 7000 rpm.....52 to 55 (dependent on oil temp and length of rev) hot idle 35

Today.....Accumulator
Cold idle....82.5 to 85......Hot rev to 7000 RPM......80
.................OIL pressure to bearings
Cold idle....80.........Hot rev to 7000 RPM......72......Hot idle.......52 but builds to 70 psi by 3600 rpm.

So from a 20 psi drop between accumulator to bearings to an 8 psi drop. Same tests and same type of conditions.

I expect track hot will reduce pressure a little more. I am somewhat bemused by the accumulator and pressure to bearings reading almost the same today cold....I think that must be the thicker oil.

At this level we might be in the 60's track hot which would be great....but better not rev it too much cold ay.

Now i gotta drop the sump again and goop it with three bond....needed to test the shim before gooping.
swift12
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and N Filter looks the same size as the ryco but the holes in the top of it are 1mm bigger in diameter however i concluded this would only be the OUT pressure to the accumulator and would not affect the IN pressure to the bearings. That does not mean though that this filter does not flow better than the Ryco. It may very well do.
Wow how friggin dumb am I? This is so wrong....these holes may have a direct impact on the before and after filter. The holes in the filter don’t go out to the accumulator at all....duh! The oil from the sandwich plate bypasses the cooler a certain amount until the oil is warm....it goes through these holes and direct through the filter media and into the engine bearings. After the oil thermostat opens all oil goes through the oil cooler. Pressure at the accumulator is always pump pressure wether the thermostat is bypassing or not because not all oil is bypassed. So the bloody filter holes and it’s flow would have a direct impact on the before and after filter pressures! The holes in the previous filters and now the k and n filter are both bigger than the Ryco one....I’ll bet that was some of the problem but not all.
I believe cold that Ryco filter had a pressure drop of at least 6 pounds because now cold both sides of the filter are almost the same......unless the oil has something to do with it.

Still think I need the 15w50 because of the bearing clearances though. They are inside book figures but nothing near the minimum. 8-[
swift12
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POX...the surge tank fuel pump is totally fried....dry running...my fault....only problem is The tuner said did you check the fuel filter?...it looks like crap has not got through it as the out side has clear fuel when tipped onto a bit of white paper so i think the injectors should be fine and its a 10 micron. the IN side is different all manner of metal came out of it...very fine particles obviously from the commutator of the fried pump.

Tomorrow Ill check the injectors all flow the same...bit of work but better be safe...run some fuel through the rail and fuel pressure reg....But i reckon the 10 micron filter caught everything.

I have to replace it of course..like every other bloody part I have screwed up.

Going to get a Bosch 070...its only 130 LPH but good to 400 HP...aint going to get anywhere near that!
its cheaper and all the car needs really....best i make sure the surge is plumbed correctly and always full!!!!

So To drive on sunday I need a new filter..its saturday tomorrow....I have a 10 micron holley one here for the boat but it has 3/8 NPT fittings and I need adapters down to 5/16. Hope a mate that works at a hydraulic place can help tomorrow. I just use vapour guard filters on the car so I can remove the holley later and its rebuildable then put it in the boat and just buy a new vapour guard....they are not rebuildable...only replaceable....but still 10 micron. but only $14 USD. instead of the holley costing crap loads. we will only run with a full tank of fuel to prevent surge this weekend if we get to run...will try to have some data on the oil temp versus pressure and a few vids.

just another day in the ongoing saga of our little cultus racer.
GTI CAPPO
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Location: Australia WA

Good luck for Sunday, hopefully all the hard work pays off :D
What else would you rather be doing if it wasn't for your little racer? Playing golf :cry:
GTI CAPPO
swift12
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Location: NZ

Tks Cappo.
Well my wife would have me tripping all over the world....like I want to do that! Spend far too much time “around the world” and not at home. She married the wrong bloke for that. But she’s off to Brisbane in August and Japan for archery soon and then I have to pay for a darn cruise (which I’m actually looking forward too) in Xmas 2020....for 11 of us....grandkids included so I’m getting the money spent on the Mouse now.

Well....today I tackled wiring up the oil temp sender....normally I’d completely rewire the loom but today I surprised everyone including myself by simply running another set of 2 wires by themselves and had it done in half an hour! 8-[

Then Nick and I took the whole surge tank setup out of the car and replumbed for normal operation...had to find fittings for a Holley 10 micron filter I had for the boat. Got them but they were 3/8 npt to 3/8 barb....so I got the inlet done in 3/8 and the outlet done in 3/8 down to 5/16. 5/16 or 8mm is the normal size.

Removed the fuel rail and checked the flow of each injector and spray pattern. Patterns all looked the same....under 12 volts and normal pressure each injector squirted approx 60 mls of petrol in 15 secs....this was a rough test as I had fuel mist etc holding a mls container under the injector and livened up each separately while nick operated the fuel pump through the ecu and timed the “on” time I was doing with a 12 volt battery....yeah....trying not to do any sparks!
It was to ascertain any leakage from injectors and did they all flow the same amount. No leaks and all flowed the same....so no crap in them.
New filter meant fuel pressure went up by 4 psi! So the other was filled with commutator windings....doh!
Pulled the fuel pressure reg vac line off....set fuel pressure to 43.5psi while idling....
Warm oil pressure on rev....80 psi
Oil temp showing data.
Track tomorrow.
New territory for me....soaking in bath with glass of Pinot all locked and loaded for club day tomorrow at 6.30 pm. No midnight rubbish.
Fingers x. Boy driving with me harping in his ear till I’m happy with car.
Full track at Manfield tomorrow for first time and reverse full track in arvo. Closet time fwd to rev....wins.
:D
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swift12
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Location: NZ

Race day done. Car intact. [-o<
Just ran all day without issue except lambda controller....the sensor crapped its deckers I think.
Great differential fuel pressure. Oil not over 80 odd degrees but I have not been able t9 set up logs to check.
Oil pressure is the big winner here. Not below 72psi on track all day but only one lap runs....so not really tested as yet! Signs look good though.
Lifter tried to tap.... 8-[ ...next mod solid lifters.
Brakes still rubbish. Too much rear camber after lowing the car....definitely going to reduce that....not good in the wet. Turned the car around....looked at footage....boy used brake in corner again.we will do the next autocross in the donor car....he needs to learn FWD techniques. Don’t touch the effin brakes in the corner....esp wet!
In the dry he was getting quicker all day....but long track so new. Plus I had to get out of car so the girlfriend could get in lol.

Most problems solved...yay....only small thing before next round of winter series. Camber reduction in rear...easy....fix lambda.....easy.......look at front brakes and balance.....not hard but need to research.

Boat trailer from tomorrow on.
Good day today
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Sam7
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Glad is went well.

I reckon build those solids in a new head and make sure your cam bearing clearances are good as well. That might be enough to allow you to remove the shim from the pump.
swift12
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I Think ill just look at silver slugs in the hydraulic lifters Sam....the end....stop the lifter tap.....
Take the hit on power...its got plenty for what we want anyway.

tell you what it needs...better brakes....they suck. overheating unless we have endless pads in....
we need bigger rotors....plus reduce the rear camber...easy peasy.

apart from that and the new fuel pump and lambda sensor....thats all ill be doing before the next round in a few weeks.
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Sam7
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I can certainly understand the desire just to use it as is. My only reservation would be that shimming the pump is a bit of a band aid fix. If I'm remembering correctly the engine that you rebuilt was pretty tired so chances are the head is pretty worn. If you've got a good head from the car you've wrecked then I'd say use that rather than adding to the risk of another crank failure. It doesn't need to be a full on race head, just a sound production spec head with std valves, springs etc.

Wilwoods on the front is the brake fix, unless you want to move to M16 uprights. It should be pretty simple. It should work with the standard mc, you just need to buy rotors, hats, calipers and get a mount milled. It's something you can do in the background while using the current setup and then swap it over when it's ready.
swift12
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the head on the car has been done with valves and port cleanup...the caps are good and the journals good...the clearance was a little too much and that was addressed by shaving the caps 1 thou. I think just getting the hydraulic lifters out will be enough....I won't be removing the shim...engine builder said its fine to leave in....not too much cold pressure at all. its the oil and filter thats fixed it i reckon.
we run larger clearances in the bottom end because of the power level....too much distortion and movement on an engine kills bearings if there is no give....the downside is oil pressure issues....this is all from the engine builder.....who has a 20 year association with a g13B offroader on the same power or slightly more i think. he runs the same clearances on that motor but solid lifters....refreshes it every few years....the buggy runs enduros revving up to 8500 rpm for extended periods....much more so than us.

so I have listened to all the info out there but ill go with the engine builder...see if it stays alive. 8-[

Brakes. I already run new swift uprights. are there different ones? I have the Znoelli discs at 240mm.
I think i can fit bigger under there no issues on the 15" wheels.....Ill troll the forum later tonight to see what I can find.
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Sam7
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I guess time will tell whether he's correct. Not sure I'd agree. For big ends yes but not the mains. I'd be modifying the oiling in the crank if I wanted it to live at 8k for any length of time.

The M16 uprights are bigger, different hub, 5 stud etc. My understanding is that the driveshaft will work as for M15. So in theory you could run M16 uprights and hubs with M16 brakes. Haven't seen it to confirm but I'm pretty sure that's what Steve was intending to do with his K20 conversion. Means new wheels or re-drilling hubs. Alternately you make a bracket to mount Wilwood calipers on your existing M15 uprights.
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Howsie13
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Mmmmm dual caliper setup?? :lol:
A Kiwi learning to fly in a Mk1.
swift12
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hi sam where i'm at is not spending more on the motor while its showing good pressure and performance...honestly..it either goes bang or it doesn't. :? plus the mains are still well within spec as far as the manual goes.
Im into boat building mode so id like to get the car to a point we can just go drive it. Brakes are probably the main thing to look at....then see if it stands the test of time and punishment.
JasStv
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Location: Brisbane

IMG_3237.jpg
This is the front brake setup we are running on our GTi

Honda Integra DC5 calipers & Honda S2000 ( 1999) 300mm DBA 4000 discs

Discs will be redrilled 4 x 114.3

We have 2mm clearance between caliper & inside of wheel

We are using 2010 Suzuki Sport uprights which push the calliper further out than the standard late model Suzuki uprights to allow us to fit 300mm discs
swift12
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Thanks for that Steve. They look great....what’s the standard drilling’s on those hubs?
ng357
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Wish I knew this info before, just bought myself the M15 uprights.
JasStv
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Location: Brisbane

The Honda S 2000 has 5x114.3 standard

The Suzuki sport also has 5 x 114.3 which gives you the option of changing wheels to 5 x 114.3 which saves changing hubs & redrilling discs

The Suzuki sport has the same spline count as the GTi driveshaft which also means you can use the Mitsubishi Magna outer CV which is stronger than the GTi

If you want to use the sport upright with the GTi hub you can change the wheel bearing to a Renault which has the same outer diam as the sport upright & the same inner diam as the Gti.
You will have to fit a 1mm shim inside upright as the Renault bearing is 1mm shorter
I think you could use a bearing retainer circlip for this shim.

One issue using the GTi hub in the Sport upright is it is shorter than the Sport hub & doesn't project into the bearing as far

There is also one other item to check That is the camber using the Sport upright. I am going to set the camber at 2 degs by changing the length of the lower control arms. I would do a test fit if you plan to stay with standard length lower controls arms & GTi driveshafts

Lots of things to check
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Sam7
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So many options. I guess you'll need to decide where to draw the line. Steve's setup looks good but might be overkill for a G13B powered car. A Wilwood kit would be around $800 nzd with the only other item needed being the mounting brackets. A Honda Civic kit might well work.

I guess M16/Sport brakes would be another budget option but I guess you'd need to redo your LCA's for the larger ball joint.
swift12
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thanks guys for the replies. some great info there.

hey so the sport uprights are different to the m13 and m15 uprights? I didn't know that.

will sport discs fit on the m15 upright with the GTI hub if i re drill them?

so I have the m15 upright....with the GTI hub....with the suzuki bearing that fits the m15 upright and the gti hub. I have modified my LCA's out and forward to compensate for the difference as the driveshaft length would be too long. I only used the GTI hubs as I picked up Volks TE 37's and im not changing those...so im stuck with 4 x 114.3. otherwise id have to change the rear hubs too as i won't be running different wheels front to rear. I have the 52mm late swift calipers and not the gti ones. I have znoelli pads but we are scorching those...only ones we haven't killed is the endless MX72 pads but they suck until their hot. my current discs are 250mm i believe.
i just read your post again Steve and I see why the changes are necessary...if i can stick with the m15 uprights and GTI hub...but find a disc and caliper i can mod onto the car to increase pad contact id love to try that.

so my options are limited to 4 x 114.3 but im happy to redrill discs. I can mill out new brackets and I have some quality alloy here and a mill to do it.
Sam what parts are the willwood setup?
I could get from the states on a trip....
ng357
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Try GLOC pads, they are great stuff. R10 compound should be good for your application. Trust me, a good pad makes a big difference even when comparing to other 'good' pads
swift12
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I looked up g-loc last time you mentioned them but can’t come up with a part number and their website won’t work for me. Plenty of miata and bmw pads on line....any ideas?
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Sam7
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The size of my calipers is a probably a little bit irrelevant as my setup is made to go under 14" wheels. You can and should go bigger. I'll take a look for a part # tomorrow as I guess it'll give you an idea of piston size. My work fine with a standard mc and a proportioning valve.

It's probably not a bad option to stick with your current M15 uprights and lca's with 4 pot racing calipers. Using the info on the Wilwood site, work out what calipers and rotors will work for your wheels. Buy hats to suit or blanks and drill them and make your brackets with the mill, job done. It'll also allow you to get rid of the spacer behind the rotor.

If you were starting from zero then the M16/sport upright would be worth looking at. I'm guessing the fact that Steve is mounting Honda calipers probably means that you'd be able to buy off the shelf brackets for 4 pot racing calipers or even just run the Honda calipers like Steve. To go down that path now probably doesn't save anything by the time you buy M16/Sport uprights, modify a set of LCA's to take the bigger ball joint, replace the bearings, re-drill the hubs, buy used calipers, re-kit and new pads, buy rotors and re-drill. You'd also need to be careful of what it might mean for your driveshaft length.

If you're planning to redo your LCA's anyway then I guess that would change things as you'll incur some of those costs regardless. Decision time as they say.
swift12
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Hi Sam thanks for the ideas...I looked at the wilwood site....doing hats, discs and 4 pot forged plus pads is the best part of $1700 nz.....ouch.
gtpswift
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I did willwoods conversion for the equivalent of a new Suzuki caliper.
I use rover 800 disks (285mm) willwoods caliper and had the brackets machined to my design out if 15 pounds worth of good grade aluminium, from rallydesign.uk. almost most expensive parts were the braided lines parts.
GTP
swift12
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How does it stop GTP?
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Sam7
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That sounds expensive, you must be getting a bit carried away.

Annoyingly I can't find any part number on my calipers. They look like dynapro radial mount but that could mean a piston size anywhere from 1.25" to 1.75". You'd assume they'd be 1.25. You'd expect those to be around $250-$300nzd. You'd expect the rotors to be about $120nzd and universal bells somewhere around $100.

I recently bought a front kit for my ae86 and that was $930nzd and that included calipers, rotors, brackets, pads and hoses so everything ready to bolt on.
swift12
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That sounds expensive, you must be getting a bit carried away.
Thats my MOJO!

yes but id like not too.

who was your supplier?
were they wilwood discs sam?
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Sam7
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The 86 kit came from Grp4 Fabrications. They're great for historic rally parts but not much help for Suzuki.

If you're flying to the UK then RallyDesign or DT would have everything you need.

Dynalite will be cheapest but Dynapro would be better. Something like this should be pretty close:
https://www.demon-tweeks.com/nz/wilwood ... nt-594008/. Work out what will fit in your wheels first. From memory Wilwood have fitment sheets on their web site that show you the clearances required. I found the TE37's wouldn't work with the Dynapro's on my car but the offset of mine might be different to yours. The Dynapro 4 pots are quite a flat wide design so the wheels need plenty of caliper clearance. I think Wilwood now make a narrower version as well and that might be easier to fit. Having the GTi hub in the M15 upright probably doesn't help. You don't want to have to end up running spacers to get the wheels to clear the caliper and I suspect that will be a possibility with the TE37's. This is where you see the difference between race wheels and street wheels. I can't run TE37's +45( without an amount of spacing that I didn't bother to work out), my Advan's +45 require 7mm and Compomotive +38 require no spacing.
JasStv
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Location: Brisbane

When Dave Homer made up his kit using the late model M15 uprights he had an aluminium calliper bracket machined up that offset the caliper to use a larger Sport disc which he redrilled to 4 x114.3

He replaced the GTi ball joint with a later model ball joint with the 16mm pin
gtpswift
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The willwoods were a great upgrade over the decent pads I had in GTi calipers on the AWD. With 102hp at all 4 wheels I never experienced fade at the track during full 15 minute sessions.
Was out braking many a car, though a lot of them were going a lot faster and having to brake earlier.
The willwoods are a good budget solution but inherent in their design, dynapro I seem to remember, is a significant amount of flex or caliper distortion is visible during bleeding. My AP 5300 series calipers on the escort have zero similar movement but we're not a budget solution.
I'd upload images but it's too hard on the phone. Have a look at my AWD GTi thread if you want.
GTP
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Sam7
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You won't get much flex in dynapro's with a car this size and weight, with dynalites you might get some. AP's would be great though, it's just the price.
swift12
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I am leaning towards looking at the dynopros using swift sport discs and re drilling for 4 x 114.3.
I can mill up a caliber brakes as required.

To save re inventing the wheel anyone done this setup and have info?

I think anything will be better than the 250mm discs I have. They are znoelli slotted and cryo treated so good quality just too small a pad area plus the m15 callipers I have sit the discs a little wide of the disc itself so losing pad contact right there. The slotted discs seems to kill pads other than hard racing ones but at 146 hp in summer racing and late stops from say 170 kmph nothing except the endless pads seem to last long but too long to "come on" and even then.....they suck...

I have been in a rally car with an acquaintance and he hit a corner at a speed I thought we were not going to make it around...the brakes were devastatingly brutal....so I know what a good feeling brake versus a crap one feels like. It probably had 5k worth of brakes on it though!!!...lol.

Im not after that....just better than what we have....

guys are the sport discs 280mm?.....anyone know what the sport pads look like?....Id like to know if I have sport callipers or just plane jane M15 calipers....or are they the same? ....mine have TOKICO on them. they are a 52mm piston. one side with sliding caliper.

I thought I was getting sport calipers when I bought them from aussie but now Im not sure.

Sorry if I sound rather dumb about all this with what we have done to the car so far but I have not spent a lot of time thinking brakes....thought sport calipers with zneolli slotted discs and endless pads were the go.....obviously not.... [-X
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pictureshowman
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Sports are 278mm. I thought M15 and M16 calipers were same.
If "X" is an Unknown quantity, and a Spurt is a drip under pressure, then an "EXPERT" is an "Unknown Drip Under Pressure".
Why dont they just call it "Womenapause" instead.
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Sam7
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So sport discs are 276x18. Would you run the sport hub as well? It might work but you'd want to check the effect on the driveshaft. I'm guessing it'll need to be 6-7mm longer. You might also need the M16/Sport upright.

If you stick with the GTi hub and just run the sport rotor then I'm guessing you'll need to space the rotor out. Not sure I'd go there. The limiting factor will be getting the rotor to clear the caliper mounting bolts. You'd want to measure it out before buying anything but I suspect you'd need a spacer behind the rotor even to clear low profile cap screws. Obviously the more you space the rotor out the less likely it is that your wheels will clear the caliper. If you use two piece rotors then at least you can turn a universal hat down to the minimum required to clear the mounting bolts safely. You could also run a larger disc I suspect.

If you go with the M16/Sport setup then I suspect it's likely you'll need to change the upright as well as re-drilling the disc and hub. That would force you to redo your LCA's for the bigger ball joint and to correct the driveshaft length.

I think you need to do your best to work in out on paper before buying anything.

There's at least two versions of new swift caliper with different pads but I'm not sure whether the sport caliper is any different.
swift12
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cheers guys.

I won't be changing to m16 uprights. I won't be using the m16 hub. I won't be changing driveshafts for now.
Ill try the m16 disc and space it out in necessary....my znoellis are spaced by 8mm already and it works fine. I could even try my calipers on the larger disc and see how I go.

I know someone doing the m16 sport disc so Ill ask how that is being done....I believe fitted to a gti upright. Thanks for the size of the disc....If I can make it work it might be a little better than what we have now.
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Sam7
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I reckon you'll end up spacing out the disc and then having to space the wheel as well to get a 4 pot to clear the wheel. Not ideal from a safety point of view.

I wouldn't have thought you'd be saving much buying quality sport discs over Wilwood discs and universal hats. If it was me I'd eliminate or at least minimise the spacers required. I guess you need to measure it out but I reckon you'd have a good chance of not requiring spacers if you use the narrow dynapro calipers and hats.
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Sam7
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On a different subject I see NPD are now selling 100+ unleaded. Should be ideal for those wanting to run Lambda sensors. Quality might no be as consistent as Avgas but at least there's no lead.
sesfez
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I have a set of calipers from an m15, but in europe they are made by TRW, and these calipers are the same as the sport, i do believe that even the 1.3ddis diesel version use the same calipers

With these calipers the pad covers the rotor completely, all the pad sits on the rotor, maybe the tokico ones are different

A picture of the pad and caliper

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Image
sesfez
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From a quick search i found these, top are the ones i use in the trw caliper, bottom are the tokico ones
The main difference is that the trw covers the whole 250 disc
Image

Image
swift12
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yes cheers thats the pad I have the bottom one.

running a 250mm disc now and i measured it tonight you would not get more than 5mm extra before hitting the caliber so 260mm would be it. a 276mm sport disc wont first unless caliper mounting adjustments are made.

I think i could fit a 280mm disc...but that about it.....I might try get a sports one....see if I can find a good set of callipers to go with it and adjust the mount on the upright???
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