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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:48 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:40 am
Posts: 950
Location: NZ
hi i used the gti hub direct to the new swift upright and changed the bearings. yes i found the gti hub is shorter hence the issue with the wheel being less out (technical term) and reducing the track on the front. I solved that somewhat with the less offset volks wheels I bought. But the track difference between front and rear could only be solved with front wheel spacers...not ideal. I originally had less track on the front than the rear...now its close to even and I understand the front should be a little wider.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 11:07 am 
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Location: Cust NZ
Mines wider in the front track than the rear. It's got a 5mm spacer behind the brake hat to get the caliper aligned. I had little choice with that as the rotor wouldn't have cleared the caliper mount if I'd altered the caliper offset instead. The rest of the width comes from making the LCA longer which was quite easy to do with the bolt-in ball joints. I have no issues with inner guard clearance but if I wanted to run less than about -1.5 then I'm pretty sure it would touch the outer with the strut compressed. Not something I'm going to want to do.

Steve, why not just run 5 stud wheels. Must be easy to get 5x114.3 wheels. I guess you'd want to change the rear as well but I suppose you don't have to or at least not straight away.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
Yes it would be easier to run 5 x 114.3 & save using to redrill hubs & disks but decided to stay with 4 x 114.3 to be able to swap front & back wheels


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:40 am
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Location: NZ
yes guys I thought about 5x114.3 on the setup as well but like steve wanted to keep the ability to swap wheels around. I could have changed the rear hubs I guess.

I could easily cut off the end of my control arms and fit the LCA ball joints as you guys have done and that would certainly fix two issues I have

1. as Sam mentioned at the outset I should have an angle bent into my LCA as the ball joints are a bit stretched.
2. I can position the wheels little further out without compromising axle freeplay and in fact put it back to where it should be.

also i could leave the main bolt of my metal LCA mods to add strength to the end where the ball joints mount.

Sam...or Steve...do you know the part number of the LCA joint you used?...will it fit directly onto the swift hub? How much did it lower the control arm by?

Sam I too have a spacer behind the hat...mine is 7mm. Ill still need that if I retain my current brake setup....my track on the front is now wider by 15mm as the spacers have been completely removed from the rear...but id like to aim for 25 so going out another 5mm each side with a simple bolt on LCA mod like yours might be the go. I could also sneak forward another few mm.
comments?

Im about to go out and lower the car....Id like dereks shock setup but with the jet boat coming and mrs Evans getting a little titchy about the s**t i need to do around the house that aint gonna happen. 8-[


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:38 am
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Location: Cust NZ
I got the ball joints from Stocks but unfortunately they don't have the catalog online any more. They were cheap as chips, I figured I wouldn't get carried away just in case it ended up as a good idea best in the skip. They're from a Mazda Astina, 323 or Familiar plus a host of other similar age cars. This TRW part # should be the correct one : TRW JBJ660.

From memory there's two pin sizes, 16mm and 18mm, I used 16mm. The M13/15 new swift uprights are smaller ( 15mm I think ) so I bored mine to 16mm.

As I guess you're well aware the ball joint needs a seat to retain it, it can't just be bolted. I folded plate to replicate the oem Mazda locating and welded that in. From memory I went 5mm forward in addition to out. My drive shafts seem fine but I guess time will tell. It hasn't done much since being setup.

I guess Swift Sport uprights and brakes might be a better option if you're doing brakes as well. For the minimal cost of used LCA's I'd start with another set and carry on with your current ones in the meantime. I'm guessing the driveshaft will work in the sport hub, I think that's what Steve was saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:18 pm 
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Location: NZ
OK..thanks for that. can you send me a pic of what you did...I know i saw it on your thread so I could be a little less lazy and go searching it.... 8-[

I made a mistake lowering the car...I cut one full coil....not measuring properly....and forgetting the ratio!!! bugger so I have dropped it too far I think. I put the original rubber spring tops back in and that restored some of the height.....do you still run the rubbers anyone?

I have the left side to do tomorrow which Ill have to replicate the right side.....if its too low Ill have to ring cobra springs....bugger.


Fuel system complete....dinner time and then ill post pics.

does anyone else only have 25mm of wheel movement between ride height and full bump? obviously there is a lot more movement from full droop than 25mm....more like 65mm...does not matter where well is the shock still moves the same as the adjustibility is the insert threading into the lower piece...so the piston maintains the same position and movement just the main body of the shock threads further into the lower part of the shock. It’s well known that the bc br series is low on overall travel...2.5” in total. Then it has a very hard bump stop on the shaft. I don’t want to get into a shock discussion because I don’t understand a lot of it....suffice to say no matter how low I go the way the bc shocks are made they always have the same travel and we have been fine with them on track so far. That’s not to say they aren’t s**t....just they are doing the job at this stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 878
Location: Brisbane
We run 600lb Kings springs on the rear & 400lb Kings springs on the front ( 200mm high plus helper spring)

We have had the Konis revalved with extra rebound resistance

I also run 1/2 mm toe in each side on the back wheels & 1mm toe out on each side at the front

I know a lot of guys run toe out at the back for quicker turn in but I prefer a neutral handling car

My front sway bar is standard & the rear sway bar is a 20mm whiteline

The Swift Sport upright has a 16mm pin hole We are redrilling ours to 18mm to use the larger ball joint pin


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:40 am 
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Location: Cust NZ
If you look towards the bottom of page 3 on my build thread you'll find the photo of the ball joint mounting plate.

Does sound like you're running out of travel. I have the same issue with my road car and the Koni sport setup in the rear. The springs were already in the car when I bought it and are too short I reckon. They're King's and haven't been shortened but the car sits at 295, too low. It hits the bump stops on any dips or with weight on board. It's a pretty common problem with any road/sport suspension for them. The rally car would have about 50-60mm travel left at 300mm ride height. The double adjustables have been built to slide further through the mounting clamp. They run a 200mm spring with keeper, so same setup as the front.

You probably should consider adjustable platforms in the rear. The two setups I've seen are the coil over conversion ( and that's by far the best ) or short threaded platforms mounted in place of the upper spring mount. To help ease the problem with the spring being too short the control arm is often modified to mount the spring in the bottom of the control arm rather than sitting on top in the oem position. That's probably the easiest change to make but still has the limitations of a short spring and ratio. If you want to go down that path I have a set of control arms with the lowered spring seats that I'd swap for a standard pair. You'd still need to weld in a threaded adjustable platform in place of the top mount on the car.

I guess that still leaves the issue of the shock being mounted too high. That may not be such a big problem on a nice smooth circuit but I guess you don't want the rear being launched if you use the ripple strip. If the shocks can be serviced in NZ then you could possibly move the locating tags when they're being serviced. I had Stock's weld the spring platform thread to my double adjustables when they were serviced as they were originally built for the setup described above rather than coil over. They remove the oil anyway so it's easy enough done.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:14 am 
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Posts: 950
Location: NZ
Hi Sam. the way the BC racing shocks are set up does not change the amount of travel in any way. Its always the same....only cars that are lowered on shocks meant for normal bump and rebound lose their bump travel but the BC racing shocks thread into the lower portion of the shock body...so the piston and upper part of the shock always sits in the same place no matter how high you go on the adjusters...just like you mentioned your shocks were modded to allow them to slide further through the mounting clamp...these are the same in principle but achieved a different way. The top part of the shock continues down through the bottom part when threading it in just as if you were moving the whole shock through a clamp lower down. So my travel has never changed...its just a short travel from the get go. Both the front and rear are the same in that respect but I can lower the front easily with the adjusters...unlike the rear where i have to cut a spring.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:15 am 
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Location: NZ
Steve ill have a look at my setup sheet. how much camber are you guys on in the rear?

My rear springs cut down might be 550 lb.
I am 320 in the front.
Whiteline swaybar in front 20mm....sway bar in rear is 22mm.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:33 am 
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That sounds like a grownup design for the shock. So why do you only have 25mm of travel at ride height? Sounds like the shock needs to be adjusted down so that more travel is available on bump or does the fact that you'd be compressing the spring prevent you doing that? If that's the case it needs adjustable spring platforms with keeper springs.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Location: NZ
I would say its maybe the hat which i had to make probably needs to be redesigned so that I can lift the top of the shock up a bit???...that would serve to bias the bump up and rebound down....id need to adjust the shock body down again for the correct preload of the spring but I could maybe go 1.5" bump and 1" of rebound instead of the other way around...ill look into wether that would work...thats a good idea to look at Sam thanks.

Mean time i have taken the car down...I found that i ran out of shock adjustment unless i used the rubber spring tops....then I can preload the spring 3mm which is what BC says to do. just stop the spring from moving about i guess. I could make some solid tops for it?? or very strong engineering plastic?? Plus if i dont use the rubber tops then ill be too low...whoops. will the rubber compress and make the rear suspension softer? they seem pretty hard bits of rubber.

with the change I am now 300mm in the rear and 305mm in the front. however the sill shows the car is lower in the front by 15mm?? Possibly measuring off guards when they have been rolled is not a good idea. I thought front wheel drive cars should be slightly higher in the front of the car. any ideas?

splitter lowered to 80mm...looks great...new bit of plastic to go on tomorrow to fill the gap...sills next .

plug made to make a carbon cover for the new fuel surge tank setup to cover the rules of sealing it from the driver...will keep exhaust fumes out as well. it fits over the surge tank and will seal with a rubber seal against the floor and it follows the floor profile hence it looks a bit weird.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:11 am
Posts: 76
Location: Trinidad
Front wheel drive cars usually come with the front lower from factory, this is for weight transfer to prevent the front from getting too light and causing wheel spin. Generally outr car the engine is mounted more front biased so we have the back a little lower, this helps under braking to prevent the back from getting too light and squirmy


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:36 pm 
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Posts: 950
Location: NZ
Cheers mate...how does that get measured accurately? Off the chassis floor? I can raise the front a bit for sure.

Thanks Sam for the pics on the lca joint. I think I’ll do this to my other control arms when I get them off...looks better than my idea as it’s got the right angle on it too.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 878
Location: Brisbane
Rear camber is 3/4 degree

I have read where the tab on the rear shock that sits on the swing arm has been ground to lower the shock body in the rear swing arm

How would you describe the handling of your car

Understeer
Neutral
Oversteer


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:47 am 
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Posts: 950
Location: NZ
Mmmm....well we have way more rear camber than that. We modified it to have 1.75 degrees neg from a guy that used to race them successfully when the Suzuki cup used to run in NZ. With lowering the car they have gone more negative. Only way to adjust that back now is to either slot the top hat area or the LCA outer bolt hole back towards the inside.

Mmmm.....neutral tending toward understeer I’d say. But then I’m not sure of that....


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 6:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:38 am
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Location: Cust NZ
Superpro make camber bolts in a variety of sizes so that might an easier solution than slotting the rear control arms. I use the Whiteline front camber bolts on my road car and they work well.

Does something else get in the way of pushing it to the point of under or oversteer ( like stability )?


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 7:33 am 
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Location: NZ
Ok I’m unsure about understeer or oversteer. The car seems to drive pretty well. Sorry I’m not technical in this way. I guess it’s a feeling. It’s a bit like when someone asks what technique I’m going to use to land the 777 and I say...I’m going to close the taps and pull back like any other aeroplane just to a lesser degree. I guess it’s just a feeling so I suppose if it oversteered or understeered to a point it affected me I’d know.... maybe that means the handling is fine. I haven’t raced enough to know but I’ll take more notice in the future. Can anyone tell from the vids? I know when I over drive a corner it pushes out in the front.
Good discussion though....I’ll think about it more next time on track

Also good discussion on the rear suspension.
Hey I’m still not sure if I should raise the front a bit....I dropped it 12mm yesterday but I think the front is lower than the back by around 15mm....I want to try and get it right before I make the side skirts. The front fenders have been rolled so it’s not a good indication of ride height. I’d love to know the height from the line through your door Sam and Steve at the front of the front door and the back of that line just in front of the rear wheel....that would indicate if the front is lower or not.

Also Steve. Thanks for the idea of grinding...I can drink out the bit that the brake line mount sits in and lower the strut a little but I’d need to also adjust the pinch bolt hole.
I was thinking about it and to raise the top of the shock (that is to make new Ali hats) I could effectively change nothing else except increase bump and reduce droop? Would be a pretty darn easy mod too. The lower shock body would be adjusted down to simply set spring preload when on full droop but the ride height position of the piston would be higher in the bore. I might make new hats to trial it to give me say another 1/2 inch of bump travel....comments?
If I run the shocks hard there is not a lot of chance on a smooth track I’ll bottom out but on soft I will. It’s getting the right hardness/softness setting to suit. Yeah I know these may not be valved perfectly for bump and rebound/frequency/spring rate but it’s what I have got and for the most part the car can foot it wth volvo’s,integras,civics,falcons,mx5’s etc etc so they can’t be too bad!


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:59 am 
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Location: Cust NZ
The door line may not be a great indication of height given they get adjusted for fit. Here's a photo showing the height to the lower fold in the sill panel at the front of the door.
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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:35 am 
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Location: NZ
Thanks Sam how level is the sill? I’m after wether the car sits level or nose or tail low and how much. Cheers g


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