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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Location: NZ
"Yes, some teenagers act bored but are usually quite smart, they just don't always act like they are interested, but can surprise you with the results, as shown"....this has me stuffed housie. 8-[

no i got it wrong...so Nick and I went on a road trip....tested car....Utube coming soon....
We have low oil pressure...maybe cam journal clearance I dunno....anyway....car went well....great in the wet....didnt know taupo at all...so excuse my driving...anyway...motor has to come out and be pulled down again....sigh...more time and money..... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:41 pm 
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They usually turn into awesome adults when they are older. At least you know he has actually paid attention and is interested, just has a funny way of showing it. Be proud Dad.

Hopefully not too much more $$$, more the time than anything. Good to have oil temp and pressure gauges in the car too. Great to hear that it went well for the time that it went went!

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Location: NZ
https://youtu.be/igm5etb6QcY

Thought I put this link here but I didn't. Excuse the crap driving. Didn't know the track. It was wet. Brakes new. Engine blows up as a finale although you don't hear much. Forgot to turn off the go pro at the end just ignore that.
And thanks Howsie for the nice words about Nick. He is a great lad. Doesn't say a lot but he's always helping. I felt so gutted for him as it was his go and we had to take it home.

The engine is in bad shape. Main bearing and big end. Possibly other issues too. Perhaps even piston has hit the head....


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:36 pm 
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I'm guessing that's the oil pressure gauge in shot. Looking at the footage it looks like the motor started dropping pressure fairly early on. The mains are likely to be damaged by any crap going through the oil system. You'd wonder if the big end went feeding crap into the oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Location: NZ
I think it was going from the keys first turn.....


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Location: NZ
Ok wounds licked....guess if it was easy it wouldn't be worth it.
I want back in that car! :wink:

Ok so running a bearing...reasons?
1. Oil pressure (ok at start....slow decline
2. Clearance....nipping up? Clearances done by machine shop with rods, bearings and crank....plus block and caps. Everything 1.5 to 2 thou
3. Debris. (Crank journals removed bearings and plugs installed cleaned and done by machine shop. Rest of engine put together scrupulously clean)
4. Damage done when I did the stupid thing with the sandwich plate?

Running in....not required for bearings right? They are either good and have oil or they don't.
Other reasons?
There was never any removal of pressure at any stage around track even after failure until I clutched in and the engine stopped. That is...on the video never one did the oil pressure light come on which is a 20psi light so no sucking of air around corners etc.
What about removal of the harmonic balancer? High NA power, vibration? The crank,pulley, flywheel and clutch pressure plate all balanced together by the machine shop.

The APV metal gasket showed no leakage...it had a great seal. The Pistons show some wear marks on the bottom of the skirts where they exit the bores....long skirt Honda Pistons as done by mike at three tech.

The cams look fine. Little bit much clearance in cam journals but pressure was good initially so not thinking they were an issue. People talk of a restrictor in the head? Nothing like that in any head I have here?

How can I clean lifters out if they have had oil with sparkles in it through them? 8-[

On the car....alignment specs.
Castor 4.5 degrees...lower than expected.
Camber. 2.1 degrees front 2 degrees rear.
Ride height 325mm centre wheel to guard and 320 rear.
Toe rear 2mm per side neg
Toe front 0

I'm going to turn the camber adjusters again to go 6 degrees castor...will still be able to get 3 degrees neg camber if needed.
Hard on shoulders so might fit the electric power steer to help....can set the degree of assist....just low assist. The LSD tends to make the steering somewhat "lively" 8-[ but it's positive....point and go. Out of corners....no more feathering throttle! Just fang it.

Nearly turned car around on an off camber corner. Tapped brakes going in....have removed stock bias on brakes....fitted wilwood bias....left the bloody thing wide open....duh.....no 60/40 there! No wonder it seemed like it had too much rear brake. The endless pads on the front started to bite well and I can tell in the dry the brakes will be spectacular. Just need heat.

If you are interested look back in from time to time. I'll post pics of the engine damage soon. We are continuing the journey. It was too awesome not to. Loved seeing the Honda guy come over and screw his eyebrows up looking at the 1300 NA that he couldn't get away from! Sooooo much fun right there.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:14 am 
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Location: Amberley
Are you able to pinpoint where the problem started in terms of what failed first? Obviously once there's metal in the oil it will quickly cause subsequent problems.

If I was asked to guess I'd look at the big end first. If it's just one that's failed then check the oil feed in the crank and check the main that the big end is supplied from.

Also think about what's different. If you didn't grind the crank then clearances need to have been checked but should be correct. The rods are different so that's a possibility. I suspect the three most likely causes would be :

Insufficient oil with the sandwich plate problem ( clue would be which bearing, last to get oil? ).
Debris.
Rod big end out of tolerance.

I suspect it's unlikely to be related to harmonics as the problem seem to start from go.

We always run the engine in on mineral oil and then swap to synthetic before we dyno or race. I know some would run it in on the dyno but we're usually aiming to minimise dyno time.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:29 am 
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Location: NZ
Ok Sam.
Not debris....I was like a surgeon.
Sandwich....definite possibility....however it was no1. No4 gets its oil last.
Out of tolerance....they were measured by bore gauge and micrometer. Possibility of being out of round? It would be hard to believe. Nipping a main amd feeding debris into the big end? Maybe but no.2 would show marks at least. I think something may have been wrong with the rod. That's just my gut feeling. If It were any other reason like the sandwich plate then I reckon no. Four would have gone.

Next engine I'd like to run directly on synthetic as if I am able to refit the Pistons and rings I won't need running in. I won't even go to the dyno....nothing would have changed except bearings and rods. Certainly I think the dyno is tough on things.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:36 am 
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Sounds like you need to take a very careful look at the #1 rod. Checking for out of round, fitment of the cap and anything like burs that may have affected the bearing.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:40 am 
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hi Sam. here are a few more pics...no 1 and 2 have definitely picked up but then there was debris shoved through the pump and the filter either didn't stop it or the debris came from the big ends picking up.

either way I have very little available time to repair so I am falling on my sword and the professionals are going to build my bottom end.

the piston has very lightly touched the head and inlet valves. The mark on the piston is so light there is no indentations. The valves in cyl 1 will be replaced...there are zero marks on the head.

the block looks ok...the bearing has not spun...however there are some light fretting marks on no2 cap.

I am not happy with the g16 pump...its rooted..it has odd marks on it like the crank has been pushing on it causing the inner rotor to bear hard on the aluminium and it has made odd marks on the crank itself. I reckon Im going to get a genuine g13B pump from Japan...$500...bugger it...heart of the motor.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:42 am 
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anyone got a G13B forged crank?
both of mine are shot.... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Location: Napier
Oh no! Can't help with another crankshaft sorry, but hope you find the cause of the issue and you can get back out on the track. The car looks like it was working well and I especially liked the AFR meter in the dash.

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:32 pm 
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well...carnage update.

went to the engine builder...they are going to build up the long block for me.
for two reasons...i don't have the time right now and I am an old woman taking far too long trying to be perfect and still stuffing it up. those guys can feel something wrong because they do it all the time...i think ill stick to flying aeroplanes...that I have done for years and years and I guess I'm ok at it. :shock:

so...firstly...the piston has ONLY JUST touched the head....he took one look at it and said...that can go back in...he will do a light cross hatch hone...new rings due to contamination. He will check the block to ensure total alignment in the tunnel. He will remove and test the two inlet valves...the exhausts did not touch...the inlet valves looked like they only just touched but any doubts I'm ordering the same valves...

We will use the original rods although max speeding is looking to make me a new rod of the same specs as the one i killed. apparently the original rods are just fine for what we are doing.
The cams...fine...the head...fine....the pistons ....fine....the crank...boat anchor....the block hopefully ok...

so the list.

new G13B oil pump...no more aftermarket pumps for me. expensive...ex japan.
new APV head gasket...awesome.
new std suzuki main and big ends assuming I can find a crank thats good to go.
two new inlet valves if needed.
my original rods weighed, measured and new pin bushes installed.
the block plugs pulled and the block flushed.
replacement crank (now where the hell do I get that?) with the galleries cleaned out.
machinists to fit crank, rods and pistons/rings.
fit head with plastercine to check clearance
fit head and torque down
fit oil pickup and sump, rear main seal, cover, oil pump and front seal.

then i take over and refit everything else. take me a couple hours and a half day to fit back in car. :?

we are not changing the formula!...we hit the jackpot with our setup...we have scope to improve but right now...i just want to be back where we were with a happy bottom end!

My mate with honesty gave me a reality check on the way I treated the gearbox based on my tube vid. Nick drives the same. yes we are munters. [-X tks Blake. :D so we have to rely more on brakes and less on punishing a weak gearbox....also we are so stoked with the performance of the little suki we want to get back there and have even more....so Im looking at a dog box kit from Kalmar. yep been soul searching about spending a lot more on a suzuki rather than just buying a honduh but thats not the point ay?
Ill tell you why...we forget the journey...and only look at the destination at times. How cool it was to see a guy sidle up to the suki he other day and look at the turbo 1800 engine fitted into the engine bay to find an NA 1300 and his eyebrows said it all. he spoke many words without saying a thing. then a honduh guy came up to ask what we had in the car and remarked it was quick...i said a 1300...his eyebrows raised and the words holy crap came from his mouth...thats what its about ay...developing something that people think is a nothing car [-X doing that with your son...priceless. memories right there.

we looked at the big frame box...with the box, final drive, close ratio synchro set, axles, mods, clutch, flywheel etc it is as much as a kalmar close ratio dog box kit where i can fit it in our box using our suzuki motorsport clutch type lsd. The guys using turbos...rallying etc probably need the big frame box...but do we? whats the weak points? the engagement hubs...the synchro's would be gone...the weak input shaft replaced by a stronger one....we are 124 hp at the wheels....not 200. Is it better than developing a big frame box...probably not but I'd take the dog box over synchro's (because we are munters?lol) and i think it would be fine for our power level. NO EXTRA FABRICATION either...just rebuild our box with those parts.
we would rebuild the shifter to rid ourselves of the very inconsistent feeling changes. no rubber...just bushes...

anyway...im tired...ive had some wine....and I'm rambling. flame away re the dog box...lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Location: Bunya QLD 4055
I have numerous iterations of gearboxes for my cars ranging from close ratio lsd dogbox to Large frame Super close ratio lsd box with 5.11:1 FD. The box I love the most is the dogbox but I will change from 4.1 to 4.4 FD for street sprints and hillclimbs.

On oil pump talk, I thought you had an accumulator which would have reduced the chance of a nip up on bearings etc. I suspect the oil pump failure was because it picked up metal and ground it into the pump temporarily giving resistance producing the abnormal wear on the pump drive on crankshaft.

I would not give up on the G16B oil pump as the extra oil volume will be handy for inflating the accusump. Speaking of which, what is the volume of it when up to pressure and have you added that much extra oil into the system? Do you have a shut off solenoid on the accusump for retaining the pressure until the next startup? I think you mentioned that it holds good pressure but did not mention how it is activated.

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
This how much impact a close ratio dog box has on a Suzuki GTi

Nathan testing his Mk1 GTi with new dog box

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcdwI_k7eLk


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Location: NZ
Hi Guys.
That's it....we need a dog box! That was awesome thanks Steve.
I have to decide on the final ratio....4 2....4.4....4.6? Ideas? I'm sold on the kalmar setup.
Not much point going much faster than 185 to 190? That would be the 4 4 I think.

The accumulator was not fitted. We left it off to keep it simple for the testing. Unfortunately I have found out my testing and driving like I stole it is the same. 8-[

It's a quart when pressurised. Only got the manual ball valve. Turn on just before start....off just before switch off. I believe the nip up was there at the build....it was inevitable no matter what I did unless I ripped the engine down before ever starting it. The signs were there. [-X


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Posts: 853
Location: Brisbane
The link below will give you the ability to calculate speed in each gear for any tyre size, gear ratio & final drive ratio

GOLD

http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/gear_ratios.shtml

We use 195/50/15 tyres & 175/60/13 tyres I have just bought some new 185/60/13 Nankang AR1 for short circuit events this year

15" tyres are 577mm diam & 13"are 552mm

The 13" tyres make it a weapon on the short circuit tracks

We run a 4.4 diff ratio
13" tyres at Leyburn street sprints 117km through the straw chicane

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=st ... ORM=VDRVRV


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:19 am 
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Location: Amberley
I'm a bit like pictureshowman, I've got a series housing dog box fitted and a big frame box sitting on the shelf.

There are pros and conns to both solutions. I'd intended running a big frame box but ended up buying a car with a SQS dog box fitted so I've continued to use that.

Without doubt the dog box is brilliant to use. Great ratios and very quick gear change. What are the downsides? Well you're still using the series housing which has a number of issues. Smaller gears than a big frame box, the mounting lugs are at risk of breaking off, driveshafts will break unless replaced. Same shift mechanism so if you're hitting 1st instead of 3rd then you'll still do it just quicker and that's a serious risk to your motor. You can mitigate a lot of this, we have custom made high tensile driveshafts, series housings aren't too hard to find so you can refresh with a new housing every once in a while. A bit more time behind the wheel might help reduce the missed shifts.

A big frame box gives bigger gears, stronger mounting, stronger drive shafts, cable shift and lots more gear sets to choose from. It does add around 6kg to your weight. Probably the biggest issue is cost, especially when you have dead money in the series housing option. If you bought a billet flywheel, race clutch, dog gear set, new bearings, lsd and a used G16 housing/shifter then I suspect you could spend north of 6k. Add another 1000 to 1500 if you want sequential shift. Of course if you're starting from scratch with a series housing then the numbers are similar. I guess you could well ask what a real race box is worth? A Quaife would be around 10k but there would be extras like bell housing and driveshafts. I guess the total cost may well be north of 12k and even a Quaife won't be forever as you can only rebuild so many times before a new housing is required.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:51 am 
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Posts: 571
Location: NZ
The dog kit for the m16 box is $2400 euro so with tax 5 k.to 5.5k.
The lsd I can get SH for $920 including.
A donor box is $500
The flywheel and clutch unknown but it would be at least 1k
The drive shafts, cable shift who knows.
Sequential is $1800
Time to modify....priceless....fun factor huge.
Modification costs......there will be some for sure....welding and re drilling of case to fit, rear mount etc. car off the track for months while I get time to do it.

The series housing....4K....one day to fit.
I believe that even though the big frame box is the obviously better option for reliability and longetivity there are too many cons for me. I had two series cases....I have a clutch type LSD. No other changes required. Better driveshafts could be done....where do they break?
I would need to address the woeful shifter in the car and make my own one. The engine is almost hard mounted so don't need that rubber stuff in the shifter mechanism. The problem is that the H pattern is on an angle....too easy to hit the wrong gear....I'd look at addressing that.

Is there a difference between a mark two and a mark three gearbox? I've been asked


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:33 am 
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Location: Amberley
If I was you I'd start by seeing if I can improve the shifter using your current syncro box and see how well that works.

The big frame box option can be as little or as much as you want to spend. The cheap as chips option ( yes there's no such thing in motorsport ) :

Used swift G16 housing, shifter, driveshafts, flywheel and clutch ( should be $300 or less but finding one is difficult).
Used Type 2 swift sport box for gear set and bearings ( $500 ).
Weld the diff and go racing.

In reality you'd want to replace the CV's and the clutch but you get the idea.

I've never broken a driveshaft but I assume it's at the CV. The previous owner had custom high tensile driveshafts made and that's solved the problem.

I'm not aware of any differences between a mk2 and mk3 box.


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