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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:38 am
Posts: 131
Location: Christchurch
The Gripper seems to be cause of my handling problems. A quick test of the preload and about 8 ft/lb will slip the diff. Not sure whether Grippers are any different to any other plate style slippery so a quick email to Gripper diffs confirms that it's in need of a rebuild.

That'll take a while so I need to look at my various spares to see what can be used in the meantime. I have two spare boxes that haven't been used in 20+ years so I figured I'd better take a look at them to see what state they're in.

The first runs a 4.389 final drive, Suzuki Sport slippery, and has had first gear replaced. As soon as I take the bearing plate off I can see this one has problems. Two shims have been installed on the CS rear bearing and one has been eaten. As soon as I lift the CS out the front bearing also collapses and the casing has been damaged. The CS has way too much float but the gear set looks ok. The housing also has a lug broken off where the engine/gearbox mount attaches. So I clean up the bits remove the slippery and pack it away as a project for another day.

The second spare I expect to be just a standard GTi box. This one is a pleasant surprise as not only is it as new internally but it's also fitted with a Suzuki Sport slippery. I'll use this one so I clean, check and reassemble this box ready to go in the car.

That just leaves the fun bit of a quick gear box change. Testing it confirms a much happier car that drives predictably. At least now it's in a state where meaningful changes can be made to spring rates and dampening.

The effect of the buggered slippery on handling surprised me. Without thinking about it too hard I'd expect it to drive like a car with an open diff but the effect on stability was far worse than that. It was very difficult to keep on the road at any speed greater than about 80kph and far worse than my road car, on gravel, with road tyres and an open diff.

The next job will to take a look at the box removed from the car and remove the Gripper. Depending on what I find and might reassemble this box with the other Suzuki Sport slippery until the Gripper is rebuilt.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 827
Location: Brisbane
Hi Sam
Haven't been on Redline for ages & just read your post
Surprised at how much work you have had to do
I thought the new car was ready to drive out of the box
It sounds like your Tarmac plans have changed


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:38 am
Posts: 131
Location: Christchurch
Hi Steve

Yes and no, Chris had told me that the gearbox had been in the car 3 years so I kind of expected it to need a refresh. I guess it's like any competition car this age, some things are great and other things not so. The SQS box is great to use so while it works I'll freshen it up and keep using it. If it dies then the big frame box will probably go in.

I was initially just intending to do tarmac events but when the local tarmac rally was cancelled due to a fire affecting the roads I figured the calendar looked a bit empty so I might as well give gravel a go. There's actually far more competition in the gravel events with a number of English import fwd cars like Fiestas and Golfs so it should be quite good. My only reservation is that I've never seen a GTi go well on gravel, or at least not here. It will be interesting to see what we can get out of it but I think it will be a process of improvement for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi,

I supplied few parts to Andy's car build.
I sold him a LSD, a Pressure plate, a JDM low milage gearbox and others which were Suzuki Sports.
I have also supplied my lightened flywheel.

The car was used in rally from 2002 so it is quite old car in service.
Andy has spent long time and effort to get to what he wanted.

I didn't know it went NZ.

Good luck with your build and I hope you will have asuccess.

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 827
Location: Brisbane
Hi Sam
Sounds like you have some fun ahead of you on the gravel
Tarmac events are thin on the ground here in Qld as well
Shame because the GTi would be so much fun on these events
I will keep a look out for your progress
Have fun
Cheers Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:33 am 
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Location: Christchurch
I've dismantled the dog box and removed the Gripper.

The box is in excellent condition with no measurable wear. It's interesting comparing a standard helical cut gear set with the straight cut gears of the SQS dog box. You see why they're so much stronger. You'd think that a SQS kit for a mk4 swift in a big frame box would be pretty much indestructible. I guess the kit alone is nearly 4k but if it's a job done once then maybe it's cheaper in the long run. If the bearings are replaced on a regular basis and you use good oils then you'd expect it to last indefinitely. I know from past experience with somewhat fragile TRD gear kits that changing the bearings once a season was the key to getting the gear set to last.

Attachment:
File comment: Helical and straight cut side by side.
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This is the good Gripper.
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The think I'll reassemble the box with a Suzuki Sport slippery and put it back in the car until the Gripper comes back. Once I get the gripper back I'll change the bearings and seals and reinstall the gripper hopefully good for another season or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:38 am
Posts: 131
Location: Christchurch
So I've reassembled the dog box with a Suzuki Sport slippery and will install that along with a reduction gear starter ( thanks Bewitched ). The starter weighs in at 2.7kg compared to the 4.1kg of the original starter plus it draws less power and generates more torque.
Attachment:
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One thing that was interesting is the extra brace from the two M8 bolts on the left case cover to the engine/gearbox mount had caused 3 of the M6 bolts that hold the left case cover to shear off flush with the casing. I guess the idea is to help prevent the 3 mounting lugs on the gearbox casing from being snapped off. The downside is that it looks like it's transferring the stress to the cover bolts which aren't designed to handle the load.
Attachment:
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I managed to eazi-out the broken bolts so I guess I'll see what happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:01 am 
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Location: Christchurch
We gave the car it's first run on gravel yesterday. All things considered it went pretty well. We were about 3s/km off the pace but I was being a bit conservative being it's first outing on gravel. On the last run I tried softening the rear damper settings but I went too far and that cost us a couple of seconds over our second run. I suspect I need to look at softer front springs next.

Here's a bit of footage, if nothing else it shows what great roads we have for rallying in North Canterbury : https://youtu.be/nUSGZRmgbqI


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Location: Christchurch
In action on Onepunga Rd.
Attachment:
29_Onepunga-Rd-KC_23-Apr-17_130_3200.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Great start mate! Keen to see how you progress. Keep it up.

_________________
Back in the game! Now building something mental... Will I ever finish? I hope so! When? No idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 827
Location: Brisbane
Good to see you having fun in the new machine

How does it feel power wise

Cheers Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Location: Christchurch
Thanks Steve.

The engine's great. It's making 132 atw on avgas 100 and it makes good power right across the rev range. It's clearly been built as a rally engine with the emphasis on a broad power band rather than maximum output. When you couple that with the SQS dog box it really is very good to drive. If I was building from scratch I don't think I'd go down the path of the SQS kit in the series housing but I have to admit it is very good.

The handling is the only thing letting it down. The tail gets very loose over about 100kph. If I can get that sorted so that it's stable and predictable then it'll go very well.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
Very good . I would ditch the gearbox & post it to Brisbane
Are you allowed to fit a rear wing in your class regs
It may be effective in pushing the rear of the car into the road making it more stable
Worth a try
Years ago when Ari Vatinen had the Peugeot at Pikes Peak the car was almost uncontrollable
They added a second blade to the rear wing & hah presto Handled like a dream


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Location: Christchurch
Yes, I did contemplate whether I should sell the dog box and use the money to fund a dog kit for a big frame box. The current one works well so I guess it's easiest just to continue using it for now.

That's a good thought regarding the wing and nothing stops me fitting one. I haven't seen anything for a GTi, there's a few replicas of the Cultus upper and lower wings but I'm not convinced they'd achieve anything ( apart from looking good ). Maybe it's just a matter of looking for a motorsport wing for a similar sized hatch and adapting it to fit. There's lots of wings available but for most it's not clear what aero affect they might have. Maybe an upper wing built for the later Swift with a known/tested aero affect. Do you know of anything?


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 827
Location: Brisbane
The image below is an insanely quick hillclimb GTi from Europe. lots of aero

Attachment:
Suzuki GTi race car rear wing .jpg
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I think if you try a wing it would pay to make it a decent size

If you go on ebay & type in rear wing heaps come up that are quite a good size & not that expensive . A few dollars & some custom fitting would be worth a try


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:45 am 
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Location: Christchurch
It certainly looks the part. My only reservation would be whether it would be overkill without the rest of the aero package. Being on gravel we can't really do the front, lower rear and side pods without being forever replacing them.

I was thinking along the lines of a s1600 spoiler. The originals are factory built so have been designed to work for a particular car for rallying. You can buy copies of these from a couple of European based manufacturers for reasonable money. One from a C2 or Clio would be a pretty close fit and a similar sized car. The Suzuki oem spoiler is 1010mm wide and a Clio s1600 spoiler is 995mm wide so as close as I'll get.
Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 827
Location: Brisbane
Sounds like a good plan
I was at Queensland Raceway today watching the club sprints
The new 86 Toyota club guys were there on mass competing I had a long chat to one of the guys with the big carbon fibre rear wing & front spitter . Data logger analysis after fitting rear wing 4 km slower down the straight & 10km faster in the corners
Will keep an eye out for your review after fitting wing


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Location: Christchurch
Time to try changing spring rates. I've tested the originals and the fronts were 325 and the rears 100. I'm currently replacing the fronts with 225.
Attachment:
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The rears are a bit more of a problem. The current spring is 250mm and 100lb. The rear ride height is a little on the high side and the platforms are as low as they can go. It's flat to slightly higher in the rear. I could try a shorter spring and keeper but I'm pretty sure I'd be running out of stroke in the dampener. I think ideally I need to mill another retaining groove so that the shock can be clamped lower and regain the use of the adjustable platforms.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 am
Posts: 1526
Location: Londoninium
quite a common job, though a clamped strut tube and hand file is quicker cheaper an thus easier...of course you cant say milled to describe it but!
GTP


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:32 am 
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Location: Christchurch
Hand crafted I guess but yes that would work using an old clamp as a guide.


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