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 Post subject: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:57 am 
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Location: Christchurch
This is not so much in the build but more tweaks and changes to an existing competition car.

The first problem that I needed to solve was getting speed/odometer readings displayed on the dash. The dash is a Race Technology Dash2. As it stood the car had no speed input going to the dash. The Dash2 requires a square wave hall style input. The two options seemed to be to either install a wheel probe or a pulse generator from the old speedo drive. The reason we need to do this is to comply the car ready for a tarmac rally in March that will require road registration.

The tidiest option seemed to be to replace the speedo drive. The gearbox had a blanked off cable drive installed. This was replaced with a Baleno pulse generator which is a bolt-in replacement for the cable drive ( thanks to DMWDave for this ). The pulse generator is a magnetic vss so the signal generated can't be read by the Dash2 without conversion. To the convert the signal we installed a Motec DMC-D behind the dash and feed the signal from that to the Dash2. It was then just a matter of configuring the pulses per mile in the Dash2 to get the correct speed indicated.


Attachments:
File comment: Dash2 ready to display speed.
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File comment: Motec DMC installed behind the dash
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File comment: Baleno pulse generator installed
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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:56 pm 
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Location: Bunya QLD 4055
Will look forward to more of this. Good start.

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Why dont they just call it "Womenapause" instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:18 am
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Location: Melbourne
Hey mate,
Did you buy this car from the UK?
Cheers
Brad

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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:09 am 
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Yep, imported it last year. Trying to get it setup for gravel at the moment which is proving entertaining.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:39 am 
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Location: Melbourne
I was also interested in this car too and was chatting to Chris alot but i had to sell a car before i could buy one and that didn't happen.

You ended up beating me to it.

Have fun with it and good luck.
Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:53 am 
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Location: Christchurch
Thanks.

I'll post up some more stuff about the car over the next few weeks as we tweak stuff, mostly suspension.

It's basically a very well built car but there's a few things that make you wonder what the thinking was. The wiring is an example, the engine bay and ecu is beautifully done but what's under the dash could only be described as a birds nest.

It was on the dyno last week and is making 132 atw on avgas and that's an improvement of 9hp from the way it was mapped when it arrived. It's running quite mild cams at 9.2mm lift so more is possible but it's very drivable the way it is. Sounds very strong, had all the Subaru boys at the tuners coming to take a look, sounds like a BDA was the comment.

The Brexit nonsense made it pretty compelling buying in the end, with their exchange rate diving.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Location: Chch - Quake Capital
Who did the tuning? Have you got some events in mind?


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:27 am 
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I'll do the Taumutu rally sprint next weekend, probably also the Onepunga Rd sprint next month. I don't have high expectations as it's pretty unstable on gravel. I'd been keen to do the Ratec tarmac rally but we'll have to wait and see whether that comes back on the calendar after the fires.

Jason Anderson at Ohoka has a Dynapack dyno and did the tuning. He seems to know what he's doing and seems to be the goto tuner for North Canterbury rally competitors. Worth talking to him if you're looking for someone to map your ecu.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Can't say I've heard of him, I use Jonathon Harman, he has done my cars for years, no complaints from me.

No gravel rash for me so might see you at some of the Ratec sprint events like Little River or Hawkswood later in the year perhaps ?


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:37 pm 
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For sure. I'd entered Hawkswood but obviously it didn't go ahead due to the EQ damage in the area. I'll try and do most of the Ratec events where they don't conflict with the various kids sporting events.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Sweet, with HP figures like yours I'm glad you're over 1300cc :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:06 am 
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Yes, just like the other G13B powered cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:38 am 
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I can't speak for the Rally scene but myself and a few other circuit guys have gone to considerable effort to find low km Jimny blocks to stay at 1298cc.

Personally I think the offroad guys make more sense where they are allowed to overbore so the 1300 class is actually 1334cc, using the 75mm honda piston brings our engines in exactly at 1334cc.

I'm not sure what the future holds, with less small NA engines and blocks wearing out it would make sense to move to 1450/1850/2500 cc classes rather than our rigid 0-1300/ 1301-1600 1601-2000 etc.

Anyhow go well at the shingle sprint 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:30 am 
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I guess I would have thought it was fairly unlikely that anyone would build a new race engine based on a worn standard bore. Certainly in rallying I suspect you'd be hard pressed to find a standard bore G13B. The bigger events, like Targa, run a 2 litre class and then have an equivalence formula based on age and capacity. They used to run the class to 1399 cc and no equivalence. How well the equivalence formula works I guess we'll have to wait and see. At least it's an attempt to address the issue of competitiveness in terms for both capacity and for older cars without effectively having a class for each car. Club rallies still rely on schedule A and I agree it needs addressing or at least a dispensation for older cars.

I guess I'd expect any track GTi turning up to a hill climb or sealed bent sprint to have a significant advantage over a rally car in terms of weight, power and suspension so surprises me that you don't want to compete against one.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:02 pm 
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I know Glenn Dunlop who has a red starlet got his engine resleaved (with official paperwork) to specifically stay in the 0-1300 class as he holds the clubmans class record, that car is so fast nobody would believe it's inside class capacity.
Then of course there are guys like Kevin Page in his Datsun ute running an A15 block who always enters in the 0-1300 class, he never leaves the bonnet up unattended and if you wander over while hes working on it he quickly closes the bonnet and starts talking about the weather :^o
he's not that fast so no one ever protests.

I do think they need to allow for at least 0.5mm overbore to reuse worn blocks at least once, 15 extra cc is not going to make much difference however when you start going 2mm over thats another 64 odd cc and you start to get a real advantage not just with displacement but running bigger valves etc, 105hp atw vs 132hp atw is a massive power advantage regardless of extra weight.
As for suspension, I'm neither stiff enough for the track or soft enough for tarmac, total compromise but its the similar or worse for the Gravel guys that do tarmac events with changing.
I'd love to do the Port Hills tarmac rally but my car is not road legal and is not able to be :cry:
You usually find it's the low budget club guys that are more focused on class placing than other competitors with bigger budgets who are more focused on overall placing.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:06 pm 
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I would have thought that 1mm would be a more workable allowance. From memory I think that's what the Australians use or might even be 1.5mm.

Anything making 105 atw should be little more than a stock G13B. If all you need to do to obtain another 30hp is bore +1mm then the bloke who built this engine wasted a hell of a lot of money.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Anyone out there running a GTi setup for gravel?

I'm trying to take my tarmac suspension setup and reconfigure it for gravel. One reason why I doing this is that I have an ex track car Koni setup of custom build double adjustable coilovers that I'll use for tarmac. The old suspension setup is a set of Gaz gold adjustables. These are about 75mm longer than the Koni's. I don't know how they're valved but given they were built for tarmac rally then I think they will be near enough for an initial setup.

The Gaz do seem like a slightly odd setup even for tarmac. The spring rate on the rears calculates to about 100 lb and the fronts to 400 lb. This is just based on calculating the rate from free length, diameter, number of coils, wire size etc. I haven't had any of them tested. I guess I would have expected harder in the rear and softer in the front ( this is a coilover rear ).

I figured initially I'd bolt on some gravel tyres, no other changes, and see how it went. The answer was badly. Next thing was to check the alignment. That revealed a seized inner rack rod end that we couldn't adjust so replaced that and setup the alignment with 3mm toe in at the rear and 3 1/2 degrees caster, -1 degree camber and neutral toe at the front. The thinking here was directional stability was more important than maximum grip for the rear and that neutral toe on the front would equate to a slight toe in under acceleration.

The above made an improvement but stability at anything greater than 100kph, even on a swept gravel surface, is pretty bad. I'm purely talking about straight line stability, haven't worried about cornering yet.

Anyone got any suggestions?


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Sam a stock g13b engine is around 80hp atw, 105hp is from 11.5-1 compression, quad throttle bodies and medium sized cams, no head work.

I know when Andy built that engine he spent a fortune, over 2000 pounds in labour alone, a lot of that was because he was re-inventing the wheel so to speak by using 76mm dome pistons instead of using 75mm honda pistons that are proven and inexpensive, he was chasing maximum reliable capacity because his class allowed it, I just hope it is reliable as the replacement cost would be mind boggling.

As for suspension, those rates are wrong, depending on weight split you'll need something like 200lb F and 150 R or 180F/140R take the springs down to Chamberlains in Sandyford street and the guys will test them for free.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Just crunched some numbers very quickly based on an 850kg car and a soft setup would be 1.8hz/2.0hz front to rear which equates to 180lbs/125lbs front to rear.
A firmer setup would be 2.0/2.2hz which equates to 220lbs/152lbs front to rear, that should give you a better idea of starting points.


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 Post subject: Re: Swift GTi Tarmac Rally Car
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Yes Derek, I'm well aware of what stock is. What I was saying is that the difference in output has far more to do with the work done to the motor than the capacity and that 105 can be achieved from a mechanically stock motor.

The spring rates are definitely wrong and will need to be addressed but I'm not convinced that will be causing the straight line stability issues. Especially given that the rear is probably erroring on the side of being too soft.

My thoughts were that maybe the front toe needs to be toed in rather than neutral. Given a gravel surface and braced suspension then maybe it doesn't toe in under acceleration. I was also running through what affect the diff might have. It's a Gripper lsd which are generally setup more aggressively for tarmac use than they are for gravel. Might have an affect but I was having difficultly convincing myself that it would affect it in a straight line. In fact the opposite might be more likely, that is if it's tired and not locking up as it should.


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