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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:23 pm 
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double intrusion allows you to remove the bars in the doors.

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:44 pm 
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also stronger, torsionally stiffer and will help prevent a 'T' Bone car coming through the door and over the single bar. Which is more messy!

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:45 pm 
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The side intrusion bar inside your door is 3.5kgs, there's a ton of weigh you can loose in the doors so if you need double side intrusion bars to be able to gut the doors then do it, we only need single bars here and it does make you feel a little vulnerable sometimes, hence why I moved seat, pedals and steering over 100mm towards the center of the car.
Also don't skim on the extra bars, a short one from the rear stay to the main hoop inline with the door bar makes a huge improvement in strength in side impacts as does a short bar from the front legs to the firewall, they are short bars and don't weigh that much but make a huge difference to the strength and stiffness of the shell.

Here's a really old pic.
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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:54 am 
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Location: Brisbane
Pretty sure The Ipra rules (cams ) are that if the door intrusion bar is removed the cage must have a intrusion bar to replace the door bar,it doesn't say it has to be double intrusion bars, although I know the fia international level spec cage is for a cross in the intrusion bars,( but they also want full cross in roof,full cross in main hoop diagonals ,double bar in main hoop horizontal bar and extra bracing bar in front legs, which is very overkill and suited more to rally and very high speed roll overs than club racing) .
The distance between the front leg and main hoop is not big enough for a side impact car to actually penetrate the cabin of your car, so it would be a pretty strange accident for penetration into the cabin area, I think your pretty safe with a single intrusion bar, especially when you consider we basically sit level/slightly in front of the B pillar in a swift.
Keep it light and simple!!

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:01 pm 
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Thanks for all the opinions on this! It's good to read what everyone has to say about the subject..

I read the regs and you have to replace the door bars with something of similar protection in the same area i.e. Intrusion bar. It doesn't state single or double..

In the process of mounting seat at the moment then I'll mount my harness bar and harness, also waiting on gussets for the cage..

"Fuel box" is off getting fuel tank made and pumps mounted.

Current pic of the cage fully welded in..


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Seat mounts nearly beat me..

Tried a few different things but thanks to GTP and posting his picture he gave me inspiration on this..
These are tacked together and yet to cut the gussets out for it but for now the seat is low enough!!


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:56 pm 
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Personally I'd be very hesitant about mounting my seat like that, tunnel side probably ok but on the sill side any impact will cause the seat base to get crushed, ideally in a side impact where the sill gets hit you want the seat to rise up, the way that yours is mounted the seat is likely to be forced downwards and the base of the seat will be crushed, this is just my opinion so take it with a pinch of salt but I think it would be worth doing a bit more researching on it.


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:58 pm 
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I heard about A guys pelvis getting crushed between his Cage and transmission tunnel a few month ago.
He had a full fia approved Cage in his BMW and it still came inwards.
Not an injury you would want so I think its quite risky aswell.

My Cage has a bar parallel with the underside of the door for a bit of extra strength.. might be worth thinking about aswell. (Although you probably cant mount that anymore)

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:58 pm 
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Dattman wrote:
Personally I'd be very hesitant about mounting my seat like that, tunnel side probably ok but on the sill side any impact will cause the seat base to get crushed, ideally in a side impact where the sill gets hit you want the seat to rise up, the way that yours is mounted the seat is likely to be forced downwards and the base of the seat will be crushed


Understand where you are coming from dattman, but say hypothetically I mount the seat just as low with the side mount the right way up? Any side impact will still result in a similar outcome. Yeah?

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:18 am 
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I dont know how low you actually need to go, but I think the left side is actually your problem.
With a side impact you would want the seat to move instead of crushing, but I am no expert.

We made a bit of extra space this way, fitting 2m10 guys without issues, and there is a slider under our seat mounts.
Might be an idea :)
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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:25 am 
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Southy I know how difficult it is to mount seats, I'm 6'4 (197cm) and it does take some effort but seat mounting is actually quite critical and the FIA standards (which you prob don't need to adhere to) can only be met by seat manufacturers when they include the seat mounts and mounting method, when they are mounted the correct way up the force pushing them together forces the seat up and the tops of the seat brackets pushes outwards, all the strength of the seat is in the base, there is very little strength in the sides and the brackets upside down will bend the sides of the seat in towards each other instead, not an outcome you want.

On the sill side you shouldn't have any issues getting the bracket to sit low enough, with mine the seat hits the floor before the bracket does, floor mounting with plates and spacers worked fine, the issue is in the tunnel side with the sloping floor and mounting the bracket upside down is a lot easier than cutting the tunnel.

Dude you are doing a great job with the car but I would suggest seeking an opinion of a professional race car engineer on this one as it's a critical safety item.


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:36 pm 
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Hypothesis for discussion. the seat is bolted to the car via 4 bolts through a captive nut set into the seat from the seat brackets. At the point of the captive nut the seat does not know (in a forces direction point of view) what way the bracketry extends. I assume (and this could be the downfall of my argument) that the seat is equally strong in all directions from the captive nuts! The force loads through the seat mounting captive nuts can come from any direction to account for any and most types of impact forward/aft lateral/vertical and all together rotational etc (are there any more)
so During an impact the bolts do not care which way the load is coming from.
Now inverting the seat bracket, (which I have seen done enough times to be sure its not a silly design) shouldn't confuse the seat mounts given above they don't care where the load is coming from.
So the next question do the seat mounts rails know or care where the load forces are coming from?
In this instance Southy is converting the seat brackets to work in Tension rather than compression (not that 3-5mm material offers much compressive strength). I don't believe the brackets care which way the forces act through it, they will do their job, like the captive nuts irrespective of which way the forces move. Acting in tension under most use
Mounting to the car then is a deciding factor.
I inverted the transmission tunnel side of mine to move the seat 50mm further central ( I ant cut the tunnel as there is a 90mm prop shaft and 75mm exhaust just on the other side. while the laws of cantilever come into play because of the extension above the tunnel I believe I have reinforced the structure and spread the impending loads.
the Outboard mount on mine is floor mounted as the cage prevents me from installing the seat with both inverted and wasn't necessary as I'm already so far over to the center. However In my opinion a side impact will do one of three things
Flatten the car, dive under and push the sill up or penetrate in and push the sill down.
What are the rotational forces of each scenario against the seat mount inverted or not and does it matter to the seat or the bracket.
I dont think it does.
If the box section or pillars are stiff enough and load from the seat via its 4 captive nuts then seat rail brackets will transfer into the floor in largely the same way irrespective of design (cantilever compression/tension aside)

GTP


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:00 pm 
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I mostly read rules from a rally perspective so this may have no bearing but read on as it may help.

The last time I read the seat rules (last year) your cams legal options were to use the race seat brackets straight to the floorpan, create the very specific FIA designed removable bars to bolt the brackets to or use the factory mount points. I havent seen anybody in the Victorian rally cene do any of the above.

Most people take a length of 25mm rhs and cross between the tunnel and the inner sill. They put a reinforcement plate each side end where it attaches to the body and then drill through it and weld in a threaded inresert

This has the seat only 30mm off the floor and it is very solid. hope my crude drawing helps


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:02 pm 
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this would have been easier.... google rally seat mount


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:09 am 
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Sobil, that is all good and well but has several flaws in a swift. Firstly the seat will be sitting higher on cross rails than longitudinal rails, mine was like that originally and now is 70mm lower, secondly the cross rail works if you have the width between sill and transmission tunnel. in both mine and Southy's case the central mount needed to be installed in the transmission tunnel to allow the seat to clear doors, side intrusion bars and add the extra safety of distance between door and driver, not to mention weight balance. this is not possible so I mounted mine over it and southy is exploring the same.
Finally the cross rail has minimal scope for seat aft and forward adjustment whereas the longitudinal mounts as we are using has almost infinite adjustment (not a big issue for single driver cars)
The cross rail is very much an old school rally solution where close forward vision was beneficial, circuit cars can afford lower drivers and longer sight lines.

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:56 pm 
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Keen to see how you go, my biggest concern with you photo was seat belt routing and complexity. You are right though rally cars are different and need to be closer to standard than circuit cousins.

If you can move your steering column and run a pedal box then why not sit further in and lower

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:31 pm 
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southy wrote:
Had to machine the hex on a speed flow fitting for the oil filter adaptor plate as they were too close together (probably designed around a different brand of fitting)


I had the exact same problem with mine. Its a pain in the ass trying to get the oil lines on when its in place behind the turbo!


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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:47 pm 
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With the seat. There may be some re work but I'm pretty sure I have it sorted.. It would have been ideal just to weld some RHS in there and be done with it..

I've managed to knock up a set of ramps for the car trailer as the originals were hard wood and weighed a ton!! Also made some dollies to roll the GTi around the shed and finally got the gussets so I trimmed them to suit the curves and welded them in today... Pleased with the result!!

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Yes. I like hard parking faggots and want to be one. It's my dream
Thanks,
Dan.


Last edited by southy on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:03 pm 
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G'day Ben,

Freakin' congratulations Mate. =D>

Not many people would have ever made it this far during a build... me included! :oops:

Looking forward to hearing about the day you make it to the track and take it to the big boys. 8)

Cheers,

Drew

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 Post subject: Re: N/A M18a GTi
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:04 pm 
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DrelvisGTi wrote:
G'day Ben,

Freakin' congratulations Mate. =D>

Not many people would have ever made it this far during a build... me included! :oops:

Looking forward to hearing about the day you make it to the track and take it to the big boys. 8)

Cheers,

Drew


Thanks for the kind words mate, it's been a long time but I've learnt a heap and that's why I won't give up on it!

She is not far off the track hopefully, but far from complete. There will be plenty of updates when the time comes that is for sure!

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Rasputin wrote:
Yes. I like hard parking faggots and want to be one. It's my dream
Thanks,
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