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 Post subject: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:34 pm 
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The GTX Baleno came out with a J18a engine and a 4wd gearbox, im sure i recall that the G16 gearbox will bolt up to this engine combination, I need to research it a little better (Dig up old threads on teamswift etc) But here is my proposal:
M series internals can be made to fit in the G16 Swift Sedan (Mk2\3) gearcase, and the 4wd gearcase setup is similar to the G16, does the 4wd diff measure up to\compare with the G16, is it interchangeable? If this is the case, then it allows 4wd LSD to be used in the 1600 gearbox
If the J series gearbox does fit in a similar format to the 1600 box, then it opens up the use of current (In dealerships now) gearsets... for example the SX4 which has a J20 engine, there is a 4wd variant of this, and of course the much toted 6 speed in the latest generation.
current new Swifts have also gained a 6 speed in the latest Swiftsport
Using M series components in a 1600 gearcase, there are a lot of (well priced) cross mission gearsets available for the Swiftsport available through monster motorsport
It has been established (by DMW Dave among others) that the new Swift m15 internals are quite suitable for turbo use inside a 1600 gearcase.
Also available aftermarket, is shortshifter arrangements for the cable shift gearbox setups (be they M series, 4wd or even G16) and better still (I intend to install one of these) the Suzukisport sequential shifter.
I have a lot of hard data to gather and check, but in theory at least... you could build a 6 speed gearbox, that fits the G13B and has a sequential shifter plus and either turbo or close ratio setup in the gearset just by interchanging parts from other models of Suzuki... if this is the case, then the next few years (as parts trickle into wrecking yards) should be a golden era for suzuki gearboxes in GTi models :D
Anyone care to add some fact to my speculation?


Attachments:
File comment: Parts in factory Cable shifter linkage G16a
G16 Cable shifter.jpg
G16 Cable shifter.jpg [ 99.75 KiB | Viewed 194 times ]
File comment: Mk3 Swift sedan G16a gearset 3.7 final drive
Swift 1600 SF413.jpg
Swift 1600 SF413.jpg [ 152.25 KiB | Viewed 192 times ]
File comment: Swift ZC21s close ratio (factory) and with a 4.1 final drive
SwiftSport RS415.jpg
SwiftSport RS415.jpg [ 135.08 KiB | Viewed 199 times ]


Last edited by Bewitched Gti on Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:02 am 
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Not quite sure what your trying to establish?
The bellhousing from a J series engine will bolt up to a G16 engine
The diff in a 4wd box will NOT fit in any of the 2wd housings
To use a 1600 bellhousing on a G13b it requires modification,it is possible to use new swift gear parts in a 1600 sedan box,but the input shafts are different,so only the gearset itself can be changed if using a new swift box that has same tooth count on 1st and 2nd gear as the 1600 box.
Its also possible to use swift sport gearbox on a g13b using 1600 sedan bellhousing modified to suit(atm this gives the closest set of ratios and 4.4 cwp), note that the sport,M18,1600 sedan boxes all have larger diffs than the G13b ,which require larger driveshafts splines,they also have larger input shaft splines that require different clutch.The 1600,sport and M18 all take a larger dia flywheel,I imagine the J18 would also use the large dia flywheel/clutch.
To fit a 1600 sedan box to a g13 the centre driveshaft from the 1600 box is used but this requires a adaptor and a fair bit of machine work to the bearing support to make it fit the g13b block.Other items to consider are that all the bigger frame boxes use cable shift instead of rod change and they also use hydraulic clutch actuation,(I convert my 1600 gearbox kits to cable clutch).
Until somone gets hold of a six speed box and phisically trys mateing it up its not possible to say if it would work on a g13b or not,most of the newer gearboxes have a different length input shaft,so this may become a hurdle,along with the other items mentioned above, and depending on how they have built the six speed its quite likely that it will be weaker than traditional five speed(i.e. usually the width of the gears is compromised when going six speed).

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:27 am 
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Awesome dave, thanks for your input :D
You have confirmed a few things, and I do need to do some more reasearch.
My suggestion wasnt a bolt-up proposition, but to use the current parts, a litte modification (the same as adapting a G16 box) is justified.
Another option of course, is to use a G16 block with the aforementioned swaps, but im still in the process of completing my crank conversion, depending on total cost to finalise this, it may be prohibitively expensive to make a super 1600 just to suit the new gearbox options.
Everything costs money, but at least this proves (in theory) that If i were to produce a new g16 bellhousing that suits the g13b and couple that with engine mount kits and driveshafts, that the gearbox conversions wouldnt have to be all custom fabricated every time.
Hubs: on swifts, what fitment suits? I have some advised swaps in mind, but can you definitively say that your HD driveshafts bolt into GTi hubs? The 4wd\ G16 hubs are different spline? *Same spline as GTi but not cino hubs*
The reason for this thread, is to determine what custom parts (at a minimum) need to be produced to facilitate the gearbox conversions. Does th swiftsport driveshaft fit any of the J or G series boxes at all? *Swiftsport and SX4 driveshafts fit boxes and gti hubs* Im asking as it makes sense to query those who have dealt with the parts, rather than having to trawl wrecking yards and trial fit parts to go it alone.
Other than your PG style modification, is there
any LSD that will fit the 1600 box? * ZC31s swift sport does*

*Editted March 2015, added the answers I found to my questions, by trialling parts while I worked at a wrecking yard in Perth*


Last edited by Bewitched Gti on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:26 pm 
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As Dave said, the six speed will probably be weaker than the 5 speed. In the Lancer Evolution models, the six speed was weak and broke frequently. Anyone with big horsepower or competing converted back to the 5 speed from the RS model or the earlier EVO7.

What are you trying to achieve? Lay it out...Do you want a 1600 gearbox (with late model internals) mated to a G13B motor that runs heavy duty driveshafts? If that's the case, then that's been done.

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 Post subject: 1600 to J to M to G
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Yes, in the corolla the 6 speed has narrower gears than the 5 speed (to fit in the same space)
Im trying to put together the facts, what parts will fit, what needs to be done and what options would be available if this conversion was undertaken.
All the details in one thread, rather than just guessing or having to search multiple threads in both forums.
If its not all linked together, then the details of such projects will never become common knowledge, im sure there are guys out there that know parts uses i havent even contemplated yet, and unless someone asks the right people, the right questions...it will remain largely unused
sk4wd wrote:
What are you trying to achieve? Lay it out....
:arrow:
making a resource thread on gearbox swaps, same idea as d`s internals of engine thread
racers secrets are well and good, but what a waste if people dont share the research, and then retire... must we spend forever wasting time and money chasing what has been forgotten?
examples:
6 gears in a gti: this how
replacing hard to find 1600 parts with current model: this is how
and as a by-product, if you wish to do this work--heres a go-to of people for work\parts.
My aim has always been: develop the swift and make it common information


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:23 am 
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I think Dave is the box man in Australia when it comes to Suzuki and somehow youll have to do a search
through all his threads and paste them on here or a new thread and have people correct you if needed.

Alternatively you could look into a manually shifted 4 speed auto (if strong enough) with an lsd as Im personally sick of playing with clutches to find the right grip required and leg effort for strip and street. Again it all depends what you need and are trying to achieve.

Im still ooing and ahhing at a flared full cage 83 hatch shell for a RWD north/south turbo LPG g13b/ custom gear set sierra box and shortened winters rear end. ( however the minister of finance is still blocking my bid)


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 Post subject: More technical diagrams
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Did some more digging through manuals at the local dealership.
It would appear that the second half of th gearcase is the same on J, M and G1600 boxes
The J20a box appears the same as the M18a box, but the new six speed is something different entirely
I trial fitted my 1600 driveshafts to my GTi hubs today, they do fit (guess thats similar to the fact that magna outter CVs fit as well) So the issues between boxes are with the intermediate shaft mounts, and the larger spline input to the diff on each box type.


Attachments:
File comment: M15A current Swift
Swiftsport RS415.jpg
Swiftsport RS415.jpg [ 104.35 KiB | Viewed 8150 times ]
File comment: M18A Liana
Liana M18A.jpg
Liana M18A.jpg [ 80.83 KiB | Viewed 8150 times ]
File comment: 2wd version from J18A Baleno
J18A 2wd Baleno.jpg
J18A 2wd Baleno.jpg [ 107.48 KiB | Viewed 8144 times ]
J20A 5 speed SX4.jpg
J20A 5 speed SX4.jpg [ 80.27 KiB | Viewed 8122 times ]
File comment: Six speed from current gen SX4
J20B 6 Speed SX4 2010.jpg
J20B 6 Speed SX4 2010.jpg [ 85.46 KiB | Viewed 8129 times ]


Last edited by Bewitched Gti on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Six speed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Just for interest sake, heres the tech diagram for th 6 speed gearset as found in th new SX4
a lot of extra components
J20A 5 speed has these specs
First Gear Ratio (:1) 3.55
Second Gear Ratio (:1) 1.90
Third Gear Ratio (:1) 1.31
Fourth Gear Ratio (:1) 0.97
Fifth Gear Ratio (:1) 0.73
Reverse Ratio (:1) 3.25
Final Drive Axle Ratio (:1) 4.41


Attachments:
File comment: J20B 2010 6 speed
J20B 6spd.jpg
J20B 6spd.jpg [ 133.76 KiB | Viewed 185 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:23 pm 
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o.k. so what you need to look at now is if the second casein the j20 six speed box is the same part no as the 1600 box ,if it is then it may be possible to fit the six speed into the early case.

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:52 pm 
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Why does the 'M16 Box' you have posted say RS415? which is standard New Swift.

If you want to save looking for other gear ratio info, I have pasted a lot of it in this post:

viewtopic.php?p=259165#p259165


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:48 pm 
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:D Awesome, thanks Dave, and Thanks Sam.
Now the link is there, if anyone hits "search" they will have it all available without having to guess multiple search entries.
I thought I had the printout for th GTX Baleno 4wd box, but as it turns out, the Vin code I had at my disposal was for th G16 Esteem... thus the reason I havent posted it yet


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:56 am 
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(thanks to JasStv:) Ratios for the new six speed in the SX4
SX4 J20B (6MT)
(1) 3.615
(2) 2.047
(3) 1.379
(4) 1.029
(5) 0.837
(6) 0.707
Final: 4.117
Im still looking at what LSD (other than a PG conversion) will fit in my G1600 box
*Edit 18/3/15 Swift Sport ZC31s LSD fits with modification*


Last edited by Bewitched Gti on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:20 pm 
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In a few years, when parts trickle into wreckers... it will be affordable to convert a gti to a 2.4L engine with a six speed box, just by using the current J series parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Bewitched Gti wrote:
In a few years, when parts trickle into wreckers... it will be affordable to convert a gti to a 2.4L engine with a six speed box, just by using the current J series parts.

what you may be forgetting , is that with a lot of the later model stuff , you cant just bolt the loom , ecu and engine and box into another car , and make it run. with all the body control management , electronic power steering , stability controls , immobilising systems , etc etc , you need an aftermarket ecu , and even then its not easy , ask dmwdave , who also had help from garndi , and the guys at adaptronic , and probably even the guys trying to tune the car he did , what a pain in the arse it is when wiring in aftermarket management to overcome the hurdles and getting the various systems to operate correctly (or get the engine to run without some of the systems), all of this costs money , so although you may pay a couple of grand for engine ecu and loom , you still will have to spend a good chunk of cash to get it to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:53 pm 
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Exactly. The CANbus system makes retrofitting a real nightmare.

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 Post subject: Forgot the DISCLAIMER:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Agreed.
My suggestions were that (even if only for racer use) the basic components will be able to be mechanically combined.. and the adaptronic can manage the VVT, so in years to come, im sure aftermarket develpoment will simplfy the interface designs.. (blaze a trail as DMW, Garndi, Andy Wyatt etc have done)
Modifying isnt simply if the gearbox is small enough to clear the chassis rail, i know that, but to start something you must be able to make it fit and then adjust everything around it to suit and chase out gremlins... in basic terms the components will fit.. as for electronics and other items requiring modification, im not going into that, just the basic premise that a certain gearcase will fit up to a certain engine series
:oops: I didnt mean to make it sound too simple, just to highlight that it is possible


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 Post subject: Flywheels
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:04 pm 
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credit to teamswift:
Flywheels and driveshaft fitment will be the first issue in tackling such gearbox conversions
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php? ... ft#p325782
I will need to aquire a J series flywheel and bellhousing to compare to my G16 bellhousing and flywheel, according to this thread, the J series can be mated to the G series if the flywheel choice matches the input shaft.
perhaps a flywheel with a J series crank bolt pattern combined with an M series outter ring and starter may make these more feasable, will post results once i have researched them.


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 Post subject: 5 Years on and the parts are more accessible, plus NEW optio
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:41 pm 
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Adding specifications of current models:
Kizashi J24B (6MT)
(1) 3.615
(2) 2.047
(3) 1.379
(4) 1.029
(5) 0.837
(6) 0.707
Final: 4.117
Kizashi ratios appear the same as SX4
http://www.xs650.org.au/members%20bikes ... 0turbo.htm, a part number check at Suzuki would confirm *Edit: Same part numbers as complete unit, same box*
I've been considering if the SX4 AWD 5MT could be substituted into a cvt kizashi to manualise the Awd (I have an sx4 awd box in my possession but not a kizashi yet)

Swift Sport ZC32s (2013-) M16A (6MT)
(1) 3.615
(2) 2.047
(3) 1.518
(4) 1.156
(5) 0.918
(6) 0.794
Final: 3.944
Note that 1st and 2nd gear in swift sport appear to be same ratio as other suzuki 6 speeds
:-k I'll need to get part numbers and exploded view diagram printouts from dealership but here's hoping there's shared components between these models..
The swift sport (ZC32s) has an LSD available..


Attachments:
File comment: ZC32s 6MT
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 43.95 KiB | Viewed 5964 times ]


Last edited by Bewitched Gti on Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:19 pm 
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dmwdave wrote:
The diff in a 4wd box will NOT fit in any of the 2wd housings

Added pics of said differentials to verify what Dave has stated.


Attachments:
File comment: LSD to suit (Awd) Cultus GTi [G13B]
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 73.6 KiB | Viewed 5910 times ]
File comment: LSD to suit (2wd) Swift GTi [G13B]
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 112.84 KiB | Viewed 178 times ]
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 Post subject: Kizashi 6 speed gearbox, Swift Sport 6 speed gearbox
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:11 pm 
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A quick trip the dealership today netted me these :)
I also got part numbers to cross reference uses.
Schematics:
Attachment:
File comment: 2010 Kizashi 2wd 6MT
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 379.8 KiB | Viewed 190 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Kizashi Gearset
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 640.28 KiB | Viewed 178 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: 2013 ZC32s Swift Sport 2wd 6MT
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 534.01 KiB | Viewed 181 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Swift Sport Gearset
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 750.9 KiB | Viewed 184 times ]

Enjoy 8)

Internet search: 2010 Kizashi Gearbox 2012 Swift Sport Gearbox


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