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 Post subject: Cheap close ratio box, ideas and discussion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:35 pm 
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I've posted this on Teamswift but I suspect there's more demand for this here on Redline.

I'm starting this thread to discuss the possibility of building a hybrid close ratio gearset using as many factory parts to cut down costs,

As we all know the problem is the huge gap from 1st to 2nd, using a 4.4 or 4.7 final drive helps disguise the problem but makes 1st so low it can't be used for anything except getting off the line.

Lets look at the ratio's vs road speed @8000rpm, I'm using a tire size of 185/60/14 (for simplicity I have listed the USA gt box as standard ratio and the rest of the world Gti as the 'gti' ratio.

Standard with 4.1
1st 41/12 = 3.416 = 62.19kph Gap
2nd 36/19 = 1.894 = 112.16kph = 50.0kph
3rd 32/25 = 1.28 = 165.97kph = 53.8kph
4th 32/35 = 0.914 = 232.43kph = 66.5kph
5th 25/33 = 0.757 = 280.63kph = 48.2kph

Gti with 4.1
41/12 = 3.416 = 62.19kph Gap
36/19 = 1.894 = 112.16kph = 50.0kph
33/24 = 1.375 = 154.50kph = 42.3kph
34/33 = 1.030 = 206.25kph = 51.7kph
27/31 = 0.87 = 244.18kph = 37.9kph

Firstly you can see the huge gap from 1st to 2nd, a 50kph gap, percentage wise it's nearly twice as much, also the theoretical top speed is huge, not much chance any of us will hit 8k in 5th...

Lets look at the same boxes with a 4.389 final drive, the poor mans solution (me included )

Standard with 4.389
1st 41/12 = 3.416 = 58.09kph Gap
2nd 36/19 = 1.894 = 104.78kph = 46.7kph
3rd 32/25 = 1.28 = 155.04kph = 50.3kph
4th 32/35 = 0.914 = 217.12kph = 62.0kph
5th 25/33 = 0.757 = 262.15kph = 45.0kph

Gti with 4.389
41/12 = 3.416 = 58.09kph Gap
36/19 = 1.894 = 104.78kph = 46.7kph
33/24 = 1.375 = 144.33kph = 39.55kph
34/33 = 1.030 = 192.67kph = 48.34kph
27/31 = 0.87 = 228.10kph = 35.43kph

As you can see the gaps have shrunk on average about 3-4kph, lets look at a proper close ratio gearbox.
I've used the ratios that Rospen listed for their No2 gearset (Rospen are no longer, contact Hertz) and Landers ultra expensive dog box.

Rospen C/R with 4.1

1st = 3.076 = 69.09kph Gap
2nd = 2.056 = 103.33kph = 34.3
3rd = 1.546 = 137.41kph = 34.1
4th = 1.240 = 171.32kph = 33.9
5th = 1.030 = 206.25kph = 34.9

Landers Gearset with custom 4.3 FD

1st = 2.82 = 71.83kph Gap
2nd = 2.00 = 101.28kph = 29.45
3rd = 1.53 = 132.39kph = 31.11
4th = 1.26 = 160.76kph = 28.37
5th = 1.05 = 192.91kph = 32.15

Look at the nice consistant gaps and the decent 1st gear, you don't drop too many revs when changing.

The only problem is I don't have AU$3500-4000+ to spend on a gearbox, and if I did spend that much on a gearbox I think my wife would kill me...

To be continued...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:39 pm 
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For those of you that don't know 1st,2nd and reverse on the input shaft are made in one piece, the other half of the gears sit on the countershaft and are individual gears, 5th gear is separate on the end, it can be interchanged between a gti and standard gearset as far as I know and so are 3rd and 4th.

I've thought a lot about how to make a cheaper alternative using as many factory components.
What if we made a new input shaft with different ratios for 1st and 2nd and move them closer to 3rd gear, this would mean you would have a close ratio 1st, 2nd and 3rd and standard gaps to 4th and 5th, the gaps dependant on whether you have a gti or standard gearset.

OK so 1st gear has 41 teeth on the counter shaft and 12 on the input shaft, if we alter that by 3 we would get 38 and 15 on the input shaft which gives us a ratio of 2.53, 2nd gear has 36 and 19, change by 1 tooth to 35/20 equals 1.75

with a 4.389 FD

Custom 1st 2.53 = 78.44kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 113.40kph = 34.96
Standard 3rd 1.28 = 155.04kph = 41.64
Standard 4th 0.914 = 217.12kph = 62.08
Standard 5th 0.757 = 262.15kph = 45.0kph

OK, still got a big jump to 4th but 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are looking much better.
What about a gti 3,4,5

Custom 1st 2.53 = 78.44kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 113.40kph = 34.96
Gti 3rd 1.375 = 144.33kph = 30.9
Gti 4th 1.030 = 192.67kph = 48.3
Gti 5th 0.870 = 228.10kph = 35.4

Ok 3rd to 4th looks better, changing from 1st to 2nd to 3rd is pretty sweet.

What about using standard 3rd gear and gti 4 & 5

Custom 1st 2.53 = 78.44kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 113.40kph = 34.96
Standard 3rd 1.28 = 155.04kph = 41.64
Gti 4th 1.030 = 192.67kph = 37.63
Gti 5th 0.870 = 228.10kph = 35.43

Well now we have the gaps all within 7kph of each other and the worse gap is 2nd to 3rd which is basically the same as a gti 2nd to 3rd, still not quite as good as landers box.

Lets add a 4.7 and look at the numbers again

Custom 1st 2.53 = 73.25kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 105.90kph = 32.65
Standard 3rd 1.28 = 144.78kph = 38.88
Gti 4th 1.030 = 179.92kph = 35.14
Gti 5th 0.870 = 213.01kph = 33.09

Yes I hear you say, you didn't list a gti box with 4.7 FD

Gti 3.416 = 54.25kph Gap
Gti 1.894 = 97.85kph = 43.6
Gti 1.375 = 134.78kph = 36.96
Gti 1.030 = 179.92kph = 45.14
Gti 0.870 = 213.01kph = 33.09

So as you can see there is quite a difference between our custom set and a factory gti box, look at the road speeds, 1st is pointless in the gti/4.7 combo and there is still a large jump from 3rd to 4th, the only gap that is slightly better is 2nd to 3rd.

As you can see both the gaps and the speeds in each gear are pretty close to the rospen close ratio gearset which sold for around AU$4000, (I'm sure Brett will correct me if I'm wrong )

How much interest would there be if we could get a new input shaft made with a new 1st and 2nd gear, standard reverse and the associated 1st and 2nd gears that sit on the counter shaft??? I would prefer straight cut gears for extra strength and they are easier to make, it would only be noisy in 1st and 2nd.

For Our American and Canuck friends it would be worth checking to see if gti 4th and 5th gears are available new, I sure the rest of us can find a standard 3rd gear with no trouble.

Can people give me thier ideas and thoughts, any reason why it won't work, is the diametre on the smaller 1st gear going to affect whether the synchro will fit, could we use a smaller 2nd gear synchro instead if it won't fit.

Anyone know any good Engineering shops able to handle the task, ie Mondena engineering would be a good candidate, what would the interest be if they could be made for around AU$2000???
Bear in mind you would still need a 4.7 or better yet a 4.9 FD but you could run it with a 4.4 until you could afford to upgrade.

Oh maybe we could run an exchange program, we ship gti 4th and 5th gears to the States and get 4.4 FD's in return?

I realise this isn't an original idea but thought I would post the numbers for discussion.

Comments please.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:00 am 
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I like the idea, but for 2k you won't get many interested.

I reckon a crazy FD will do :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:08 am 
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great post :lol:

only if we had sponsorship or bags of money :lol: this wouldnt be a problem.

one thing to remember, the box gearset rough cost $2k, and then for 4.7/4.9 diff, roughly $1200.

if you just get the custom gearset (roughly $4k) no need to change diff.

so many alternatives, but in the end, its all about $$$$$$$

good researching stuff


cheers
Peter

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:20 am 
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blackscoobydo wrote:
great post :lol:

only if we had sponsorship or bags of money :lol: this wouldnt be a problem.

one thing to remember, the box gearset rough cost $2k, and then for 4.7/4.9 diff, roughly $1200.

if you just get the custom gearset (roughly $4k) no need to change diff.

so many alternatives, but in the end, its all about $$$$$$$

good researching stuff


cheers
Peter


Dattman is suggesting there is no need for "custom" gearset as the gears already exist through various suzuki gearboxes. Realistically the 1st 2nd gear gap becomes a bit of a non-issue once you fit 4.7 or 4.9 gears. As you are unlikely to go back to 1st gear after the line take off.
If you are drag racing then yes I see a point as each shift is critical. Circuit racing, hillclimbs, road use is a little more forgiving as the torque/power band should be wider anyhow.

but I agree great research.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:38 pm 
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Have to agree, well research!!

Love your work Dattman.

4.4FD with 185/60/13 FTW! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:26 pm 
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I spoke with a local gear cutter last year about doing custom ratios and that sort of thing. He said he wasn't interested as he didn't do helical cut gears. When I asked him about straight cut gears, again he said he wasn't interested as the "pitch" his cutters are aren't suited to automotive use. Go figure.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:48 pm 
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waylow wrote:
I spoke with a local gear cutter last year about doing custom ratios and that sort of thing. He said he wasn't interested as he didn't do helical cut gears. When I asked him about straight cut gears, again he said he wasn't interested as the "pitch" his cutters are aren't suited to automotive use. Go figure.



His cutters are set to slice the pizza into 8 and 6 slices.
You probably need to speak to somone other then local pizza shop owner. ;)


There are two shops that can do GTi boxes in Sydney and at least 1 in Newcastle that can and will do gearsets for GTi. Another place is Modena in Melbourne.

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2006: Mk1- yeah well at some stage to go on track...
2003-2005 Mk3(retired)- EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.14 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:01 pm 
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The whole point is by getting a new 1st and 2nd then you actually have a 1st gear that can be used for something other than just getting off the line, if you fit a 4.7 to a standard box it basically becomes a 4spd gearbox. Even with a 4.4 which is a relatively cheap factory item you still only have a 35kph gap between 1st and 2nd on our proposed custom input shaft, which means you can change into 1st at 50 odd kph without issues which when rallying or hillclimbing is kind of important.
Also the more you develop your engine, generally you have a narrower powerband which makes a close ratio box even more important.

Nice call on the pizza cutters tekkie :lol: , I have a good lead on a gear cutter semi locally, 30 years experience cutting gears for the Royal navy apparently and does custom gears for vintage cars, sounds promising.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:50 pm 
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tekkie wrote:
waylow wrote:
I spoke with a local gear cutter last year about doing custom ratios and that sort of thing. He said he wasn't interested as he didn't do helical cut gears. When I asked him about straight cut gears, again he said he wasn't interested as the "pitch" his cutters are aren't suited to automotive use. Go figure.



His cutters are set to slice the pizza into 8 and 6 slices.
You probably need to speak to somone other then local pizza shop owner. ;)


There are two shops that can do GTi boxes in Sydney and at least 1 in Newcastle that can and will do gearsets for GTi. Another place is Modena in Melbourne.


My point is I was trying to find somewhere other than the above mentioned places to do the job cheaper than they charge :P

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:01 pm 
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i have called a place in sydney, PAR engineering.

custom gear dog sets for 1st - 4th only (no price difference for offshelf grpA or custom)

1 only once off $5500 +10%GST
5 or more $4440 + 10%GST
10 or more, he says lets talk

1st - 5th dogsets
once off $6580 + 10% GST
5 or more $5264 + 10% GST
10 or more, he says lets talk


tekkie, who is the other mob in sydney / newcastle and what did modena quote?

FYI... they werent that interested in making gearset for 1st-2nd only


will ask HERTZ if he has retained the gearset supplier fropm ROSPEN, other than that, overseas might be a cheaper alternative for both 1st+2nd or complete grpA gearsets

who's got a spare suzuki motorsport jacket, go overseas and bring back a suitcase full of spares ;-)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:49 pm 
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I can get at least one type of close ratio gear set at the moment. I will have at least another type in the coming months, just need to get in the contact with the supplier, who's overseas, and see if they'll still make them. The one I can get is as follows:

(1) 3.076
(2) 2.294
(3) 1.761
(4) 1.392
(5) 1.162

This is using the standard G13B 4.1 final drive and pinion, and will sell for around $4000ish

Those prices seem a bit pricey blackscoobydo! I would imagine the manufacturer is making a nice little profit at that. I won't go into detail, but my cost price for a close ratio gear set in A LOT cheaper than that.

Also for every ones information, I'll also be getting 4.44, 4.56 and 4.933 final drive pinion sets.

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 Post subject: gearsets
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:49 pm 
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Good work Dattman,
Ive been looking into different gearsets for a while too, mainly for added strength not ratios!!.
I spoke with Frank at Modena eng last week about gearsets for the new swift and he told me he doesnt have the equipment to cut syncromesh gears,only dogs, so that is something worth considering.
I will go through the combination of gearsets I have for new swift and liana, swift sport and 1600 and see if there ratios work out any better than the gti stuff,these could then be fitted in a 1600 box which is easily adapted to fit on g13b.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:55 pm 
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Hertz wrote:
I can get at least one type of close ratio gear set at the moment. I will have at least another type in the coming months, just need to get in the contact with the supplier, who's overseas, and see if they'll still make them. The one I can get is as follows:

(1) 3.076
(2) 2.294
(3) 1.761
(4) 1.392
(5) 1.162

This is using the standard G13B 4.1 final drive and pinion, and will sell for around $4000ish

Thats a fantastic set of ratio's and pretty good value for money, unfortunately my finance controller (as Tekkie puts it) has other ideas so thats why I'm looking for other cheaper options :lol:

Any idea what your Final Drive sets will sell for?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:14 pm 
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Can't give any firm prices at the moment, but they will be something like this.

4.44 - $600ish
4.56 - $1300ish
4.93 - $1250ish

I can't imagine anything over 4.44 would be driver friendly for street use, and is more intended for motor sport. I have a 4.44 final drive and pinion in my Gti, that only makes 95hp ATW, and it certainly made for quicker acceleration.

Don't ask me when I'll have these in stock, as I honestly don't have a clue. But I hope to have them in 3 months.

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 Post subject: Re: gearsets
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:46 pm 
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dmwdave wrote:
Good work Dattman,
Ive been looking into different gearsets for a while too, mainly for added strength not ratios!!.
I spoke with Frank at Modena eng last week about gearsets for the new swift and he told me he doesnt have the equipment to cut syncromesh gears,only dogs, so that is something worth considering.
I will go through the combination of gearsets I have for new swift and liana, swift sport and 1600 and see if there ratios work out any better than the gti stuff,these could then be fitted in a 1600 box which is easily adapted to fit on g13b.


You could add to that list the standard Ignis / Ignis Sport and Holden Cruze.. (if the boxes are the same of course). Surely with all those different gearsets there would be something worthwhile.

Not sure if this is any help, but this is the info I have:

Cultus AWD G13B (5MT)
(1) 3.545
(2) 1.904
(3) 1.310
(4) 0.969
(5) 0.815
Final: 4.437

Swift Sedan G16B (5MT)
(1) 3.250
(2) 1.772
(3) 1.233
(4) 0.911
(5) 0.769
Final: 3.722

Swift Sedan G16B AWD (5MT)
(1) 3.250
(2) 1.772
(3) 1.233
(4) 0.911
(5) 0.769
Final: 3.944

Liana M16A (5MT) *Off Euro Specs for FWD
(1) 3.545
(2) 1.904
(3) 1.310
(4) 0.969
(5) 0.815
Final: 4.105

Liana M18A (5MT)
(1) 3.250
(2) 1.772
(3) 1.233
(4) 0.911
(5) 0.725
Final: 4.105

New Swift Sport M16A (5MT)
(1) 3.250
(2) 1.904
(3) 1.407
(4) 1.064
(5) 0.885
Final: 4.388

New Swift M15A (5MT)
(1) 3.545
(2) 1.904
(3) 1.310
(4) 0.969
(5) 0.769
Final: 4.105

New Swift M15A (4AT).. if Auto is any use
(1) 2.875
(2) 1.568
(3) 1.000
(4) 0.697
Final: 4.144

Holden Cruze M15A (5MT)
(1) 3.454
(2) 1.904
(3) 1.280
(4) 0.966
(5) 0.815
Final: 4.105

Ignis Sport M15A (5MT)
(1) 3.545
(2) 1.904
(3) 1.407
(4) 1.064
(5) 0.885
Final: 3.944

Ignis M13A (5MT)
(1) 3.15
(2) 1.90
(3) 1.28
(4) 0.97
(5) 0.82
Final: 4.11

Ignis M13A (4AT)
(1) 2.96
(2) 1.52
(3) 1.00
(4) 0.74
Final: 4.33


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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:58 am 
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Those numbers for the ignis and swift sport are interesting, if you use a standard ignis 1300 3rd gear 1.28 with the swift sport 4th and 5th 1.064 and 0.885 you have nice close ratio's, build a new input shaft and you could have a really good set of ratio's, not to mention the swift sport already has a 4.4 poviding of course the M series boxes are of a similar design to the G series boxes with 1st and 2nd on the input shaft :D


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 Post subject: Boxes
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:48 am 
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Yes M series boxes are similar to G series in that the 1st and 2nd gear are built on the input shaft.Having a new input shaft made may not be needed ,a freind of mine who rallies a Honda civic had the std 2nd gear machined off the input shaft and a replacement gear key wayed and welded on, this used to be common practice for gearcutting companies ,so what you need to find is a old school gear cutting firm.I would think Albins off road would be able to do this work, they already do a close ratio gearset for the swift boxes and cwp in various ratios.
The added bonus of using the M series box gear ratios is that they are considerably stronger than g series and have overcome the built in second gear syncro design fault.

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Another thing to consider is that if you go straight cut or "dog gearset" gears, what would be the longivity of these gears on the road. I know our dogbox in our rally GTi has parts which wear out after 1000km's (and thats probably only 500km's competitive). People "in the know" say that we are doing quite well to get this many km's before a rebuild.
What are peoples opinions/experience with this??

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:33 pm 
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sk4wd wrote:
Another thing to consider is that if you go straight cut or "dog gearset" gears, what would be the longivity of these gears on the road. I know our dogbox in our rally GTi has parts which wear out after 1000km's (and thats probably only 500km's competitive). People "in the know" say that we are doing quite well to get this many km's before a rebuild.
What are peoples opinions/experience with this??


Just clarifying definition, dogbox is syncroless? so you can have a straighcut gearset with syncro's and it not be a dogbox?.

Surely there is a streetable solution with straightcut/syncro, I have seen (heard) a few WRX's on the street running straight cut gears... or maybe they just had a bearing chewed out. :lol:

-edit-

Just found an answer to my own question (WRX link, but interesting)
http://www.sjautomotive.com.au/wrx_gearsets.htm


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