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 Post subject: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:40 am
Posts: 169
Location: NZ
Hi. Been trolling through with the search engine but a bit bogged down now.
So here is the specs.

75mm Honda Pistons (three tech) 12.2:1
222/365 cams (three tech)
Max speeding rods (protection in case the young fella misses a few gears again!)
New stock stainless valves.
De shroud around valves....radius valve job
Stock Lightened flywheel 3.995kg
Cultus inlet manifold
Either 50-60mm throttle body. Prob 60 as easy to find?
New exhaust 2.25"
May make extractors 4/2/1 or 4/1?
98 fuel which I am assured will work without having to go to avgas.

Question is.
1. Can it be run on a chip on the stock ECU
2. If so will I miss out on power or have a potential grenade on my hands without a standalone computer?
3. If I get an ECU for it what other stuff do I need to make it run...ie...distributor wise etc.

All comments appreciated.
Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:53 am 
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Location: Christchurch
Yes, it can be run on a chipped ecu but would you want to. Done properly a chipped ecu will run it perfectly reliably. The obvious problem with a chipped solution is that as soon as you change something else then you'll potentially need to chip your ecu again to make the most of your changes. I'd say 90% of race and rally cars run a wired in programmable ecu and the main benefit is the flexibility for continued development (apart from the motorsport features). Chipping is really for mild mods to road cars.

In terms of what you need to do to make a wired in ecu work, then it could be quite simple or quite a bit depending on how comprehensive you want to be. Most ecu's don't recognize the gti trigger pattern so that's probably the most likely thing you'll need to change. Things you'll probably need to consider for a comprehensive setup include:

Rewiring - probably best to use the loom supplied for the ecu.
Sensors - most will be supported depending on ECU.
Ref - crank based ref from a G13BB or G16 is probably best.
Sync - modified G13B dizzy, J18 cas, sensor in a cam wheel, etc
Fuel system - ITB's, injectors, fuel rail, adjustable reg, higher flow pump
Ignition - COP eg denso coils with custom retaining plate.

You don't need to do it all. The main thing is to plan where you want to go and make sure the ecu has the capability and is wired to support anything that you plan to introduce.

A couple of questions. Why not run on LL avgas? More advance, more power and safer consistent fuel quality.
Are the max speeding rods heavier than production? Most of the cheaper after market rods seem to be aimed at turbo applications and I guess are probably stronger but are also quite a bit heavier so not great for N/A.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:40 am
Posts: 169
Location: NZ
Thanks sam7. The rods are apparently lighter than standard but id need to confirm that. Just read this post...https://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=59694
To be honest everyone said I did not need them except one friend I have....that friend does run a turbo engine and is probably influenced by that. Nothing lost though....can flick em I guess.
I could run Avgas for the amount it uses...
Fielding aerodrome just down the road....I suppose once it's tuned for avgas I would need to have a supply with me wherever we go. Can it be tuned on normal setup? ITB's....no. I invested in a cultus manifold so I'd like to make use of that.....(hey although that has a rarity about it so again can always be moved on)
Trying to aim for bang for buck if I can.....I am leaning towards a standalone. I used to be a mechanic but I was all points and plugs. This new stuff I know ZERO about so rely on others that do know.
J18 CAS? If I get the parts I can fit anything to anything....have a good workshop at home.
It's the knowledge I lack. I was going to strip the wiring out of the engine bay....so much of it is superfluous.

Cheers g


Last edited by swift12 on Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:30 am
Posts: 81
Location: Wellington
Hi again :D

I have done lots of reading about G13B builds, however little practical experience (yet) and I have gleaned this information from the pros here on this site, which I'm sure some more will jump in.

Rods - many Swift owners turbo their engines on standard internals and run about 5-8psi (120-150hp? approx) gives you an idea on what they can handle. While forged is probably not needed for a NA job, if you have it and are doing the internals anyway, might as well. Review looks good for that particular brand.

ECU - as mentioned a standalone ECU is the best option, gives you the ability to re-tune easily, however does cost more. I found these nuggets of information in my hunting recently:
- To run an aftermarket ECU will require a trigger wheel. Standard G13B oil pump does not have space to fit one so the G16B pump is required.
- Another option is the Suzuki 36-2-2-2 wheel which is also used in Subaru WRX. ECU will identify as Subaru EJ20

Avgas is great, but of course you need access to it if you intend to travel to race. Pump 98 is what many high HP cars run on here in NZ, my mates 400hp Supra included, with little issues.
NA power means high rpm (8000-9000) so an aftermarket ECU can be programmed to handle that.
Most people use Haltech (as they are Australian and so is this site mostly) and as far as I know, the most common here is Link, although best to find a local tuner and see what they are familiar with.
Knock sensor etc
The ECU would be controlling fueling and getting the timing signal from the distributor (on the Mk2/3) and then firing the appropriate spark.

You might also like this (if you have not seen it yet) might not all be applicable though:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=48208&start=540
Zuboos build, scroll halfway down.

Throttle Body - to go to a 60mm use the SR20 throttle body as it is a direct fit. The standard one can be bored to 52mm before you run out of metal.

If you ever go ITB, ill buy the Cultus manifold from you.....

1600GTI on here (aka Craig at Suzuki Performance Racing) has put ITBs on his G13/6B engine with good results, ask him if you want nitty gritty details.

Extractors - mine (being the original Mk1) has 4-2-1 extractors as they have the smoothest air flow merges. Probably what you are after for a NA build. Lots of engineering info about extractors and runner length etc for NA.

J18 CAS - Crank Angle Sensor. (as mentioned above with Subaru/Suzuki one from WRX)

So much information around it can be hard to know what is right.

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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Location: Christchurch
The rods are certainly cheap enough so if you can find a weight saving and they prove reliable then I guess why not. I have a spare motor that I'm about to rebuild so I had been looking at rod options but most seem to be aimed at turbo. It'll be interesting to see how they go.

Having avgas on hand is no big drama. I just buy 40l at a time and that'll do about four rally sprints. They don't use much. You can buy it in most places provided you have your motorsport licence with you.

My car had been mapped for 100 octane unleaded and we re-mapped it for avgas. We didn't need to change anything apart from the mappings and it made another 10hp on avgas. That might be a reflection of the tuner rather than the fuel.

Whether you use the cultus manifold or ITB's won't matter as long as you go with a programmable ecu. If you decide to change then it's on the dyno and alter the mapping. I guess that's one of the key benefits that you can continue development.

The ref and sync are probably the two inputs that require the most thought. Some use a modified G13B dizzy or a dizzy off another engine that provides both signals. The downside is a less accurate/steady ref for crank position because it's via the timing belt. Another option is to use a G16 timing belt drive pulley which includes a 36-2-2-2 trigger wheel. You also run the oil pump and sump as that mounts the sensor. That gives you the ref signal but you still need the sync for sequential injection. That needs to be off the cam so options include converting the G13B dizzy to a CAS that just provides a sync, fitting a J18 CAS ( you need to turn down the body to fit ) or any other ideas that give you a sync signal for a turn of the cam. Some have a magnet in a cam wheel others have used a M15/16 cam angle sensor ( requires work to the cam ). They're probably listed in order of engineering required but obviously not having a CAS off the back of the head will make the effort worth while for some.

I guess there's a school of thought that would say to start with something simple and then improve it if required.

I'm currently running an Omex ecu that's group fire so I have no sync fitted. I'm planning to convert to a sequential ecu so I'll retained the current ref which is a trigger wheel incorporated in the crank pulley and I've turned up a J18 CAS that I'll use to provide the sync. I also have a G13B dizzy that's had a hall sync added and the trigger pattern modified to provide the ref but I guess I don't like the idea of that solution as I'd prefer the ref signal to come from the crank so I'm not intending to use that. I'll run denso cop coils and will leave my fuel system as is. That's GSX ITB's with injectors mounted in the ITB's, adjustable reg, big fuel rail and a large capacity pump with bigger lines.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Posts: 169
Location: NZ
Wow big amounts to digest there guys. I'll read those posts over a few times.
thanks very much.
I get a good portion of what is being said. A little lost on some of the ecu stuff though. The tuner in palmy knows link very well....he has a dyno and spoke about a lot of this stuff which went over my head. Luckily he has a brother that used to run these engines in rallying so said he has a good knowledge base to draw from.

What is the best bang for buck "ECU FOR DUMMIES" setup. Can it be done without changing oil pumps? Will I pay heaps for smallish gains going to the individual coil packs, etc etc.
I know the microsquirt ecu caters for the Suzuki but nearly got sworn at by the tuner when I mentioned it. He has seen a few blown motors on them. (Blown =Stuffed not turbo)

We are not after a huge amount of seconds from this car to compete in the class we want to at manfield and I'm sure the mods above should yield the power we need as there are so many other car mods we have done untested as yet. Namely the big one is the close ratio box with a lower final drive and suzuki clutch type LSD.

So I would like to try the mods above....get an ECU on it and get it running. And of course be adjustable.
Cheers g


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Posts: 81
Location: Wellington
Yes and it will just keep on coming seeing as the all ECU stuff is reasonably new for you.

There are a few ways to operate the ignition, I won't go into them all but they all have various levels of need, and hence different ECUs and supporting mods.

Using the G16 oil pump and housing is the most simple way to make room for a trigger sensor, which you will need for an aftermarket ECU regardless. Most other options require some machine work of some sort. Sam sounds like he knows his stuff.

Stick with Haltech or Link for the ECU if you go aftermarket, they have the best support and are well known.

Best Bang-for-Buck would be a chip, you would need to have all the supporting mods done first and then use an appropriate chip. Downside is any engine modifications done after that might upset the powerband more than intended.

Will you have an Air/Fuel gauge in the car? Probably one of the best indicators of what is happening in the engine. At least it will tell you if you are running too lean.....

As I'm sure you know, it will get to a point where you spend more $$$ for less HP improvement. Traction and handling will obviously make the most of the power available and you have done well in that regard. Looking forward to the next step.

I'm going to go aftermarket ECU in mine when $$ allows, will be a big job.

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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:01 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:38 am
Posts: 131
Location: Christchurch
The guys that I use for dyno tuning had similar advice to your man in Palmy. They preferred Link and Motec. They liked Motec for being rock solid but rated Link as nearly as good but more affordable. I guess reality is that any tuner in NZ will see a lot of Link setups and get to know them really well. I'm leaning towards using a Link for the following reasons: price, support, tuner knows it, supports subaru trigger pattern ( 36-2-2-2 ).

The simplest way to get going is to modify a dizzy. Either modify a G13B dizzy or use the dizzy off a Toyota 4AG that has both sync and ref. The Toyota dizzy will mount in the G13B with a mounting plate TIG'd on.

For the spare engine that I'm building here I'll use the G16 crank sensor and J18 CAS so that the ref comes from the crank. My current engine will retain the trigger wheel on crank pulley.

If you do use a dizzy you might want to look at having enough length in the shielded cables so that you can change to a crank setup if you want to.

The COP coils are pretty cheap to do. They can be driven directly from the ecu and are Toyota Denso coils. You just need to make an alloy plate to mount them.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:03 am 
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Location: NZ
Hi Howsie.
Again my contact in CHC has been letting me know I'm going too far for now and getting carried away. I email Derek all the time...probably drive him nuts.

This is the plan....bang for buck. I already have a wide band AFR gauge and sensor that was previously bought for the off roader I never got to finish. I tried to sell it on trademe but it never sold. I'll do the said mods....get a chip to match.....install the AFR gauge and wideband O2 sensor.....and monitor how it goes on the track with a passenger. That way we can see if we have any leaner conditions. Should give us an insight into the chip for that build.
After that....like you said....any changes would need rechecking.

I may not get the best out of the mods but in reality....going from 176psi per cylinder to 250 ish all fresh with good air in/out should yield a big change in what the engine currently has!

As for other things I have done....kinda trying not to spend a whole lot more after that. Only thing I picked up to try was some mustang roll centre adjustment ball joints to lower the front control arms with the decreased ride height. Will they fit....hell no...can I make them fit....hell yes. I'll turn up some pockets and have my mate tig weld them into the control arms to press the joints into. Then we will have to enlarge the hole in the spindle to accept the slightly larger shaft on the joint. Couple of other "free" mods to bring the caster more positive with a small amount of fabrication.
Cheers g


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:08 am 
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Location: NZ
Thanks Sam. I will save this info in case I am forced to go to the ECU to make this all run well.
I still don't understand a lot of what you obviously know a huge amount about....so you can run simply a Toyota 4AG distributor without doing other mods to run a stand alone ecu? Might be good info for the future if I can't get the right "chip"
Cheers g


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:39 am 
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Hi I am running a Haltech in my MK 1 track car, but if you are after a chipped ECU send a PM to Gtaye on here or Garndi as that is their speciality. Hope this helps

Adam

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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:58 am 
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The dizzy you'd need is off a Toyota 4A but you'd need the right one. It's not a path I've gone down but if you PM Derek I'm sure he can tell you the part #. I'm pretty sure he is or was using that setup.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:04 am 
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swift12 wrote:
So you can run simply a Toyota 4AG distributor without doing other mods to run a stand alone ecu?

Almost, I've been running this setup for almost 10 years now, the toyota dizzy is a little longer but with an adapter and changing the dog tooth over it works well, your engine is basically a 4age as far as your ecu is concerned and with the 24-1-1 setup you can run sequential mode, no more hp but a bit more torque and drivability down low.

Just get a fresh block running first with a chipped ecu and get some seat time.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:50 am 
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Cheers guys. Got a plan then. Chipped ECU first. Backup with AFR Sensor.
Rebuild....seat time.....then I'll muck about with the other stuff if I'm not getting the best out of it.

Hey Derek what do you mean by driveability low down.....like first gear trawling in the pits etc?


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:44 pm 
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I'm talking about mid corner feathering of the throttle, especially when its wet and you're feeding in the power trying not to light up the front wheels, nice smooth power delivery makes it just a little bit easier to drive, it's not a quantum difference but if your ecu will do then you'd be silly not to make use of it.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Oh right got ya Derek. Cheers....yes that's important


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:45 pm 
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What model 4age is teh dizzy off? Big Port,small port, 20 valve, ze?
Or are they all the same im not too cluey on the differences between the models and types?

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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Theres a whole bunch of them, they have 24teeth on the top wheel and two teeth on the bottom two wheels, also seen them on turbo Glanza/Starlet models.

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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Even with a chipped production ecu I'd still run it on a dyno, with knock ears on, and check your air/fuel ratio. That way you'll know whether you have a safe map and it'll give you a known base to work from for any future changes.


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 Post subject: Re: ECU chip or standalone on a 1300 NA high compression
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Can we fit a knock sensor to these motors?guess I should search that


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