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 Post subject: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:38 pm
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Location: Brisbane
Hi guys

New to the forum; looking at building a hillclimb car. It's not for a while yet but as the dollar is good I thought it was a good time to start thinking about getting some parts together.

From what I've been told that a genuine 120-130hp atw is achievable from these engines. Interested to know if there's a bit of a 'recipe' for this power level with an NA engine. I've done a bit of looking but most things seem to be focussed on modifying bit-by-bit rather than starting with a blank canvas.

The only real constraints are that it needs to retain the 1300cc block as I am trying to minimise weight and keep it all as low as possible (I assume the 1600 block is heavier and/or taller) ande it needs to remain reliable.

In both cases I would prefer to lose out on power rather than start adding weight or having something that is likely to blow up at any moment... but at the same time power output is also important so trying to find pleasant middle ground.

Thanks


Shifty


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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Have a look at the dyno page (http://www.redlinegti.com/dyno/). Also the tech faq ITB thread.
These a good starting points. Sk4wd and dattman posted thread on ITB and building manifolds to suit.

Also consider a lower final drive to get rolling quicker and a LSD.

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
I will probably run quads and a large intake plenum, although undecided thus far.

LSD and fairly sharp diff ratio are must-haves given the intent of the car.

Any more thoughts appreciated. Does the model of the block have any bearing on potential power/strength given that it is getting completely pulled down anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:15 pm 
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PM pcp01

He built the red JasStv GTi which makes around those figures. Brilliant hill climb car that just loves to rev.

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:16 pm 
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The g13b has a forged crank, g16b doesnt. Im not sure if the 1600 is heavier, but I think that it is a safe bet.

Most people here who run NA use BD14 cams, but that is just the generic term. Im am not completely sure about specs, but you should find them with a quick search. Also talk to supefly on teamswift, bwitched and others have recently bought cams from him. The feedback is nothing but praises.

DMWdave is the local guru, might have a chat to him about headwork.

Shorter final drive crown wheels and output shafts are available from hertz at bdmotorpsorts. He also carrier a selection of cams. The headers he sells are the old Rospen Motorsport design seem to be one of the better designs available. CAM gears are available readly on ebay of from moylee19 on the site.

Spool rods are available for the gti and are a cheap investment if you are chasing revs.

To up the compression you can use cultus pistons (11:1) or tekkie has used hond d16 piston for an even higher compression ratio.

Clutch speak with dmwdave.

Bdmotorsports have clutch plate LSDs, but the are also torsen style diffs from modena or the cheap welded diff. Powersteering is available of 1600 swift sedans.

Brakes: braided lines and some decents pads and you are set.

Suspension: piece of string.
Basic: kyb shocks and king spring
Intermediate: kings/custom springs, koni shock
Advanced: front coil overs, rear adjustable spring back
Custom: front and read coil overs.

Then there is bracing and getting a cage.

Aftermarket computers are a must for the power level you are aiming for. Adaptronic make a plug and play, but pick a tuner and go with what they tune.

I think I have covered most bits, but Im sure others will have more to add.

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:58 pm 
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If you want the truth, PM some of the motorsport people on here (myself, Moylee19, tekkie ect.) we have all built and run these motors in the spec you are talking about. BillZilla has gone a bit further and also runs dry sump.

It ain't cheap though!

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:22 pm 
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Yeah its not cheap but wise mods should get you up around that..

I have a cultus motor with a stock bottom end, cams, sr20 tb, 12.5:1 runs on E85 and makes 120HP ATW

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Set the car up first they look at working the engine , there is more to having a fast motorsport car than just power.

Handling and braking are very important.

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm
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Location: Brisbane
Graham & I are competing at Mt Cotton this weekend if you want to come & check the jasstv GTI out which is running in Improved production .Grahams GTI is running in the road registered class

My jasstv GTI is also competing in the 0-2000cc invited class at the Noosa historic hillclimb on the 13th & 14th Nov

DMW Dave will be at both of these events in his Swift EVO

Cheers Steve


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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:07 pm 
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buzza9 wrote:
Yeah its not cheap but wise mods should get you up around that..

I have a cultus motor with a stock bottom end, cams, sr20 tb, 12.5:1 runs on E85 and makes 120HP ATW


thats funny cause i thought a stock cultus motor had 11.5 to 1 comp ratio so i,m guessing that 12.5 to 1 is a typo


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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:26 pm 
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suzi13 wrote:
buzza9 wrote:
Yeah its not cheap but wise mods should get you up around that..

I have a cultus motor with a stock bottom end, cams, sr20 tb, 12.5:1 runs on E85 and makes 120HP ATW


thats funny cause i thought a stock cultus motor had 11.5 to 1 comp ratio so i,m guessing that 12.5 to 1 is a typo

the head has been decked :wink:
I'll be aiming for 12.5-13:1 cr on my cultus motor when they eventually do the e85 roll out here

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:35 pm 
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Location: Blue Mnts
Pauly wrote:
suzi13 wrote:
buzza9 wrote:
Yeah its not cheap but wise mods should get you up around that..

I have a cultus motor with a stock bottom end, cams, sr20 tb, 12.5:1 runs on E85 and makes 120HP ATW


thats funny cause i thought a stock cultus motor had 11.5 to 1 comp ratio so i,m guessing that 12.5 to 1 is a typo

the head has been decked :wink:
I'll be aiming for 12.5-13:1 cr on my cultus motor when they eventually do the e85 roll out here

How much would you have to take off to get 12.5:1? Mines had about 2mm taken off, plus the 11.5 pistons I would guess it's around 12?


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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:37 am 
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Location: Brisbane
Thanks for the continued input guys. To clarify, the engine won't be in a Swift. Nothing crazy, just rear-wheel-drive and a touch lighter. I certainly won't be breaking any records :lol:

I actually know Billzilla personally & have been picking his brain on the topic. Just trying to get a well-rounded idea on the topic from as many people as possible regarding their experiences. I have plenty of time before making a real start on it, so the more research I can do the better.

Within reason I'd like to minimise cost & complexity, so dry-sumping is out of the question but I'll obviously be putting some work into the factory wet sump arrangement to make sure it's reliable. The more simple I can keep it, the better.

It looks as though standard crank, spool rods, compression up around 12.5:1, good port job, cams & gears, ITBs or large plenum.

Does anyone have any comments on different header designs & exhaust setups for this power level?

My other area of interest is valvetrain - cams, lifters, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:24 am 
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If you want to minimise the cost, why Spool rods.
Stock units are good for smaller turbo applications as well as all NA applications upto 9000 rpm.

Up the comp, port the head, check valves and springs for tolerances, fit aftermarket EMS. Then cams and quads at your wallets expense.

And as Papa pointed out, accelerating is only 30% of the equation. Stopping and handling costs?

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:37 pm
Posts: 247
Location: Gold Coast
markymark wrote:
Have a look at the dyno page (http://www.redlinegti.com/dyno/). Also the tech faq ITB thread.


erp ... I don't have a wheel dyno readout for my racer but it made 134hp at the rear wheels FWIW. Should be a bit more as well now, I've had a bit more of a fiddle.



Don't trust Shifty, he's a spy!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:57 pm 
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If its not going in a swift, don't waste your money, go straight to a Toyota or Honda engine. Much more off the shelf products and support. And a lot cheaper.

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
Interesting to receive a response like that here & I appreciate the honesty.

The whole idea is to achieve best proven powerplant / least weight. Driven weight of <750kg, no excess weight over the front, rear wheel drive and 120hp at the tyres. If a Swift is good fun with 100hp at the wheels, 200kg extra weight, and wrong-wheel-drive... how can this not be a good result? I already have a powerful car that handles badly :)

As for those knocking the handling of the car that I haven't even built yet, I'm thinking sooo much about handling that I've chosen basically the smallest performance motor you can get because it's so light & compact.

Bill could enlighten us with figures but a 4AGE, CA18, SR16, L-series are all much much heavier & physically larger, and anything that isn't one of those engines doesn't really have an aftermarket - which the G13B does. Honda doesn't make anything RWD, except the S2000 motor which is too big to be registered in a vehicle of this weight (~1.8lt is the limit), so I would be adding a world of pain gearbox/clutch-wise that I'm just not interested to get involved in and/or pay for!

Regarding rods.. they're $550 a set including ARP bolts... stock rods will be $80+ each to prep plus a set of ARP bolts for them... $200 extra for new rods & knowing it's good for a sustained 9000rpm? Yes please.

How do the standard ECUs go stock or piggybacked? Or are they junk?


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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:07 pm 
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sent you a PM ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:45 pm 
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How much would you have to take off to get 12.5:1? Mines had about 2mm taken off, plus the 11.5 pistons I would guess it's around 12?

if you have taken 2mm off the head the compression ratio will be closer to 13:1 as 2mm from the head of a stock 9.5:1 comp engine brings it to 11.52:1 . Are you going to run Quads and and what ecu will you be running. if you have more questions dont hesitate to ask.

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 Post subject: Re: 120-130hp atw 1.3 NA build
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:07 am 
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I often see people talking about 'stopping' as an issue. In reality, good pads on stock brakes work excellent, while buying multiple pot(brand new) calipers and everything needed to go with it is not much more. Handling is however, a different issue, and prices are from 2k aussie dollars for decent suspension to 8k for top of the range. Gearbox remains the biggest issue, and engine remains the greatest cost, IF you're doing it properly. I attempted a 'cheap quick engine' but did it properly, and it was hugely expensive. You need EVERYTHING new- bearings, gaskets, seals, lubricants, dyno time, testing time, build time, machining, calculating...

At least you can just buy and fit all the other stuff in a matter of hours.
But yeah, a swift will require serious $$ spent on it if it is to handle properly with a lot of hp. LSD is a must.


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