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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:22 pm 
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For clarification of what I'm visualising, by-the-numbers:
Kizashi gear set, yellow is parts that match swiftsport, pink is the parts that Don't match


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File comment: After matching component numbers, this is the result
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 Post subject: Physically test fitting parts:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:47 pm 
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Brian @ Suzistore courteously allowed me access to his parts inventory for actual trial fitting.
Not all my subject engines and gearboxes were in stock, but enough to satisfy my investigations.
J24B stripped engine block, and gearbox shims from G series 4wds, plus I brought along my own G16 large frame gearbox casing.
Due to J24 obviously using a larger flywheel, the bellhousing of J24 gearboxes is larger.
However it would be adaptable in much the same way a G16 box can be converted to a G13B.
I found a few other new combinations of parts, which I'll reveal when I've more solidly confirmed potential.
Pics of comparisons for your viewing pleasure 8)
Attachment:
File comment: G16 Sedan box and J24B engine block
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File comment: G13A gearbox shim as template on J24B block
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File comment: G16A gearbox shim as template on J24B block
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Bewitched


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:11 pm 
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After driving a late VW polo auto on manual mode for while I can only say it would be in your interest to go for a cvt box that you can use manually, you would be surprised on its control and performance.

Not dealing with a clutch is so nice although it would be heavier what a pleasure to drive though


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:35 pm 
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The suzuki edition Cvt isn't very impressive d.
I've driven a 2wd cvt kizashi, and a 2wd 6mt kizashi
The comparison wasn't even close.
The VW version might be more refined, but the suzuki system is in it's infancy.
When the convertible cultus was sold with cvt they were badly reviewed compared to manual


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:44 pm 
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The VW Polo should be a DSG (direct shift gearbox) so it still has proper gears just with automatic shifting, it's one of the best automatic boxes around and in a different league compared to a CVT, I drove the S Cross with the CVT and it was absolutely awlful, sounds like a noisy sewing machine, crap performance with a truely ghastly noise, we bought a new Kuga with a proper 6spd auto and a turbo for less money than the S Cross, very very disappointed with Suzuki's engine and drivetrain effort.

Is the J 24 bellhousing different from the J20? I was under the impression the large frame G16 box and the j18/20's were almost identical?


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:52 pm 
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J24 (as you can see from pics) uses a larger bolt pattern.
I'm yet to get hold of a J20B and see if it's a b variant revision or just unique to the J24.
All the other J engines use the same pattern as a G16.
A j24 box could be made to fit J/G engines by drilling inboard mounting points and using the j20 clutch and flywheel, or by using an adaptor plate.
I'm thinking that a J20B half case (if it matches earlier J18 bolt pattern)
Might be a solution to make them a bolt up proposition
Buuuut I need to consult part numbers and actually trial fit a later model sx4 gearbox to a j18 or g16 block


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:58 am 
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Today drove the wifes Toyota bB manually like a maniac and its an overdrive auto and its so easy as well! must be Toyota also makes good boxes even for a pissy auto it was totally predictable.

Im sure the suzuki autos at least not CVT can be that bad as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:32 am 
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Take your auto to the drag strip d :lol:
My thread is primarily concerned with manuals, I'm not investigating any
Slush box or belt drive specials :P
*Edit: updated title specifically manuals*


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:25 pm 
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bewitched- what are you trying to achieve ,a six speed box that bolts up to a g series engine?
If thats what your trying to do, why not see if a g16/j18/20 bell housing will mate up to the rear half of a swift sport six speed.
I havnt actually mearsured the length of a six speed but being as its a fair bit longer than a five speed you may have to do some serious chassis rail chopping to get one to fit in place of the five speed(if your looking at putting one in a gti), on a new swift the gearbox hangs below the chassis rail

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:11 pm 
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Yes that's it exactly, but the fitment wouldn't just be for gti models, it's also about establishing interchangeability which Could be applied between engine types (G/J mostly)
My primary hurdle is aquiring test parts, I don't have a grand to purchase one of those 6 speeds yet, so I'm doing background research as best I can in the mean time.
I agree that it would be convenient if the g16 front bolts up to a 6 speed half case (but can't trial that at this time)
But then there's still the matter of making mounts as the sedan style mount won't bolt up to all the other cases.
As for modifying chassis rails to clear, in order to drop a J motor in one of my gti shells I'm expecting that already.


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:50 pm 
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ok,now I know what your trying to do I may be able to help,I will get a six speed sport box and see if the bell housing can be changed, if not I am sure a bell housing adaptor could be made to do same.You will need to give me a few weeks to look at this one .

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:09 pm 
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Thanks Dave, it would greatly speed things along. :)
I can get a kizashi box cheaper than I can a swift sport one, so I'll take care of that end of trialling

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:15 am 
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just in case no manual boxes works with a bell change
dont forget to look at the toyota 6 speed manual
as its a beauty and available with lsd.


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:26 pm 
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I had one but sold it as it was too long and a chassis cut and shut was needed to fit it in.

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:33 pm 
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:lol: Suzuki
:lol: Manual
:lol: 5 and 6 speed

Threadwhores please take note :P those are the topics of this thread, I'm building a resource not a speculation of alternative makes or configurations
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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:35 pm 
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Bewitched Gti wrote:
J24 ... larger bolt pattern.
... it's a b variant revision

J20B in late SX4 uses same bolt pattern on block and gearbox.
Atleast that confirms a awd (cvt) kizashi could be manualised by using awd gear from Sx4 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:33 pm 
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Tore down my sx4 J20 gearbox (5mt awd) to compare to G16 sedan.
Larger bearings, reinforced housing and a 10 bolt diff are the upgrades they've used.
I'm dissappointed the sx4 gear set won't drop in to a g16 housing, but I'm liking the inbuilt hydraulic clutch mechanism of the sx4 case.
So:machine a blanking attachment for the housing to delete the awd seal and fabricate a lhs mount bracket, a set of sleeves on a swift sport lsd to adapt the bearings, remake crown wheel copy in 8 bolt,adapt a mechanical speedo drive in the oil filler port, and I'll have an overkill strength box.
I'm quite surprised that the awd is as much an strengthened revision as the large frame gear sets were compared to sf small frame gear sets :-k


Attachments:
File comment: Sx4 crown overlaid on g16 diff
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File comment: 8 bolt g16
10 bolt j20

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File comment: Sx4 left G16 right
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image.jpg [ 343.14 KiB | Viewed 75 times ]


Last edited by Bewitched Gti on Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:43 pm 
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Housing differences


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File comment: G16 swift sedan
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File comment: J20 awd Sx4
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image.jpg [ 1.61 MiB | Viewed 73 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:54 pm 
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And other side of case to show bearing differences


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File comment: J20 Sx4 (awd 5mt)
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File comment: G16 Swift sedan
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 Post subject: Re: Gearbox compatability G series to J and M series(Manual 5/6)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:06 pm 
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After looking through the late model gearboxes, I'm under the impression that the 6 speeds might use a 10 bolt diff like the Sx4.
If that's the case, then we've got 3 design variations:
Small frame gear set (K boxes, G10/13)
Large frame gear set (J boxes, Swift sport, Liana etc) with 8 bolt ring gear
Large frame gear set with 10 bolt ring gear (Sx4 etc)
Dave can you shed light on this? Has the ZC32 six speed got a 10 bolt diff?
:-k


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