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 Post subject: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:46 am 
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[YLD80Y], you mentioned having done this in my thread about swapping to a G10...the more I look at the G10 the less appealing it is. It should have been a pretty straight forward swap, but it would have been a pretty fair bit of effort for 15hp. The more I looked at it the more only the 5-speed transmission appealed to me....outside of the cost (which would have been free after I broke the rest of the car up).

To boot, all the smoke and leaking my F8B was doing seems to have cleared up after opening the PCV back up.

So now I'm convinced that, when it comes time for a significant power increase, I'm just going to work my way through a Honda B16. 120hp will be more than I'll ever need.

In the mean time, though, I'm considering boosting this thing. A mild setup. And I'm looking at superchargers because it'll be a lot easier to plumb up than a turbo and driving it will cake...and, and this is the important part haha, I can get an Eaton off a C230 Kompressor for $150. I can do the supercharger, all the plumbing, and intercooler, and the machine work to fabricate a drive pulley for under $300 USD.

My biggest question is about fuel...I know 6psi isn't that big a deal but it will lean me out and I will need to add more fuel. My ECU isn't programmable that I am aware of so I'm either looking at aftermarket control...which I would rather avoid...or a piggyback fuel controller.

I would love to hear suggestions and opinions concerning this project...particularly about getting more fuel to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:41 pm 
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I think you might struggle with a supercharger that big, but I've never seen that particular model used before. The most common supercharger used on F8B motors is an AMR500, suited for engines around 1L. Whatever your choice, set it up to produce full boost down low, because the standard F8B doesn't breathe well at high RPM. If you can get full boost down to 2500RPM then it will pull really well. I haven't had any experience with the Chinese-built F8B motors, but my old Japanese donk has been happily boosted at 10PSI+ on standard internals for almost a decade.

Fueling isn't a big issue, assuming that your injectors have enough headroom. A rising rate fuel reg will bump up the fuel pressure enough to cover 5-10PSI. The bigger problem is detonation from poor ignition control, which will kill one of these engines in no time. You will have to do something about that - either with a piggyback or standalone ECU. You don't need anything fancy, a base model MegaSquirt or MicroSquirt will do the trick.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:00 am 
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Reading on the AMR500 it looks perfect for this little engine...and they seem pretty cheap around the world...but the damn things were never sold in the USA. about half the price as the Eaton M45 from a C230, but then double it in shipping costs. I'm looking around to see if any smaller superchargers are common in the US.

I really much prefer the idea of a supercharger over a turbo, but it seems like a lot of what I can get will cause too much drag on the engine. These M45's seem to be my best bet (easily had in the States, anyway)...seems big, but they're maxed out on the C230's. I'm reading that they have a real tough time getting more than 10psi out of the M45 on the C230 even at very high RPM.

My biggest concern is still fuel. Do you have a regulator you would suggest? And how much fuel pressure do I need to be able to provide? I'm assuming I will have to upgrade my pump.


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:12 am 
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I've had a good run out of SARD products, just make sure you don't buy a fake.
Technically you only need to raise fuel pressure at a rate equal to the amount of boost pressure being added, however this will be influenced by your injectors and ECU. For 5-7PSI I doubt you'd need to upgrade the pump.

You might have some luck finding an AMR500 (or similar) by hunting around Harley enthusiasts. Small form superchargers are very popular with those guys.

Out of curiosity have you looked at G10AT from a Firefly? I'm not sure how common they are because we didn't get them in Australia, but being an American delivered car it makes sense that parts would be easier to find than for an F8B.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:47 pm 
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Mainland USA actually didn't get the Firefly to the best of my knowledge...I think closest we got was the Swift GTI with the turbo 1.3 I4...theyr'e rare as chicken teeth, too. There's plenty of 1.0's about, though...the more I think about swapping engines, though, the less content I am in going through teh work for a <100whp engine when I can snag a wrecked B16 Honda Civic and get a reliable 125hp with a HUGE aftermarket.

I'm looking into other small superchargers but my lack of knowledge on them is hurting me. I'm going to hit up the Harley lot as you suggested and see if they have any ideas.

Raising fuel pressure an amount equal to the boost makes sense to compensate for the extra pressure it'll have to overcome, but don't think it would add enough fuel to compensate for the boost. If I'm adding 7psi of boost, which would be nearly half again the amount of air, wouldn't I need to up the fuel pressure about 50%? And then could my injectors keep up with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:43 pm 
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It's a bit tricky to give you a straight answer without knowing the specifics of your engine setup. If you could give a bit more info I can narrow it down. Does the engine have a MAP or MAF sensor? Does the ECU ignition and fuel, or fuel only?

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:58 pm 
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MAP and I'm fairly certain fuel only.


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:24 pm 
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I would forget about using the b16 donk, it's heavier than a Sherman tank, b16 and box is twice the weight of a g10 and box.

The AMR 500 is not that hard to find, just need to know where to look :wink:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-par ... 291709.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:12 pm 
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The B16 is twice the weight, but making three times the power and having a massive aftermarket that is actually locally available more than compensates.

And yeah I didn't have any trouble finding an AMR500 wasn't a problem at all...finding one I didn't have to pay $100~200 USD in shipping was a problem...of course the supercharger and shipping were less than that one, though, and the Eaton M45 is roughly half that.


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:23 am 
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makenzie71 wrote:
MAP and I'm fairly certain fuel only.


If it has a MAP sensor then it's likely the ECU is fuel+ignition. In that case the solution is to run a rising rate FPR and a piggyback or standalone ECU. The FPR will ensure you have enough fuel pressure to negate the increased plenum pressure, and the ECU will control the additional fuel delivery required (injector pulse width) and ignition timing. Properly setup and tuned I think you'll be surprised by the performance.

If it had an MAF sensor then you could simply increase the base fuel pressure and the MAF would compensate for the additional air being put into the motor. Many GTi owners do this, and replace the EEPROM chip in the factory ECU for low boost setups.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:37 pm 
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I just scoured over the parts again and yeah the only things on my intake manifold/throttle are the TPS, MAP, and IAC.

I've been going over a few other builds (buggynews.com) and no one seems to be making any changes to the ECM. Of course, this isn't the same system so I know not everything will apply.


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:08 am 
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Okay what I've ended up with is an Eaton M45 from a Mercedes C230. It may or may not work, we'll see, the price was right to give it a try. No, right now, my task is to get some pulleys on it. What I want to do is put another pulley next to the water pump pulley and drive the supercharger from there. I don't have room on the crank pulley to add another pulley, but on the water pump pulley I can add one more (or two if one v-belt isn't enough).

What I'm really looking for is a pulley that will match the water pump pulley on my F8B. Does anyone know if maybe the pulley from a Geo Metro will match it? If I can find something to match my existing pulley then I don't have to have an adapter or anything machined, and I can then probably get away with a 1/2" v-belt instead of the 5/8" pieces I can get locally.


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:03 pm 
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So you want a double pulley on the water pump? The standard unit is pressed steel, so you could weld two together. The question is whether the charger will run on a v-belt without slipping.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:16 pm 
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Yeah a 5/8" v-belt will turn it...they have an incredibly high energy transfer threshold. They're not used now because they're not as compact as drive belts, and they're not as efficient.

Even if I do have some issues I can easily add a second belt and make it a dual drive, but I highly doubt I'll need to.


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 Post subject: Re: Boosting the F8B? [YLD80Y]?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:52 pm 
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Keep us posted on the process/results. I'm keen to see how this one turns out.

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