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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:42 pm 
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Dattman wrote:
The biggest pita is they have moved the centreline of the diff, the g10/g13 diff is completely incompatible so finding an LSD will be interesting.


Will this still matter in a FR setup?

Quote:
Personally I can't see the K14 being tuned by many people, if you're NA then you're over 1.3...


As a non-Aussie, I have to plead complete ignorance and ask why this matters? This may be Australia specific in regards to taxes/racing regulations. In Japan, it doesn't matter.

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and boosted you're over 2L, the K12 would make a good little sub 1.3 class engine with an over bore but then diff and gearing options are limited.


Wouldn't the K12 or K14 just be like a boosted G13b? It is not uncommon to see a G13b turbo pushing out over 300hp and so if a K12 or K14 could do the same, then this seems like tuners gold because finding a G13b for sale in a lot of countries is more than a weeeee bit hard. I found one on auction for about $500AUD but it blew up in the end to over $1500AUD and I'm not going to spend that on a 20 year old engine when a K12 or K14 will do the same power but with more efficiency and reliability.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:42 pm 
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Racing regs for Improved Production in Australia have classes set at 1.3L and 2L (naturally aspirated). To race with a turbo motor in the 2L class the limit is 1.2L. This makes the K14 unsuitable, regardless of potential.
Looking to Japan the performance focus is on K6A and M16A motors. A good indication is Monster Sport, who don't list go fast bits for K12/14 engines.

ishigakisensei wrote:
Wouldn't the K12 or K14 just be like a boosted G13b? It is not uncommon to see a G13b turbo pushing out over 300hp and so if a K12 or K14 could do the same, then this seems like tuners gold because finding a G13b for sale in a lot of countries is more than a weeeee bit hard. I found one on auction for about $500AUD but it blew up in the end to over $1500AUD and I'm not going to spend that on a 20 year old engine when a K12 or K14 will do the same power but with more efficiency and reliability.


G13B motors putting out 300hp aren't common, I could count the examples I've seen on one hand. Examples of K12/14 motors making similar power would be nudging closer to zero, so I'm not sure where your conclusion about power/efficiency/reliability is coming from.

Whoever decides to pursue the K12/14 as the basis of a performance build will be pioneering with their efforts - and that comes with the associated burdens of time and money.

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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:35 pm 
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FIA regulations state any petrol engine which has forced induction caries a 1.7 multiplication factor to promote parity, ie 1.0 turbo is equivalent to a 1.7L naturally aspirated engine, Rotary engines also carry a multiplication factor which is 1.8, so a 12a is equivalent of a 2.16L .
Most motorsport authorities around the world use these FIA correction factors in class rules, actual class rules vary widely but in many classes there is often 0-1300cc, 1301-1600cc, 1601-2000cc etc I've also seen 0-1450cc and 1401-1850cc, 1851-2500 etc,
The reason I mentioned cubic capacity rules is it wouldn't make sense to use a K12 or K14 if you have no need to, as YLD80Y mentioned the M16 engine is what people are developing, why re-invent the wheel?

As for me personally, here in New Zealand most clubs run a strict 0-1300cc class, no overbores allowed so once a g13b block wears out and becomes oval like mine, I have to look for a low km round block to rebuild from, which is getting more and more difficult, if it wasn't for the awful gearbox options then I'd consider developing a k12.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:04 pm 
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[YLD80Y] wrote:
Racing regs for Improved Production in Australia have classes set at 1.3L and 2L (naturally aspirated). To race with a turbo motor in the 2L class the limit is 1.2L. This makes the K14 unsuitable, regardless of potential.


Ah. I see. This matters to people racing in those classes so it makes sense for them to care.

Quote:
Looking to Japan the performance focus is on K6A and M16A motors. A good indication is Monster Sport, who don't list go fast bits for K12/14 engines.


MonsterSport is shyte for service. Maybe they'll talk to you and if so....you are part of the worthy blessed few. I talked to a shop who offered to build a M16 turbo for more than $30,000USD. 250hp seems to be the max in power that shops here are willing to go for. Exceptions exist but not one shop will verify the reliability. Maybe MonsterSport will....but they never respond.


Quote:
G13B motors putting out 300hp aren't common, I could count the examples I've seen on one hand.


Try the internet. Its amazing.

Quote:
Examples of K12/14 motors making similar power would be nudging closer to zero, so I'm not sure where your conclusion about power/efficiency/reliability is coming from.


Ah, I fully see why you have a lack of understanding. Perhaps I can help. There is this thing called the internet. Its really amazing. There is a great deal of information to be found. A site called YouTube has things called videos online....told you the internet was amazing....where people around the world - you know, places you've never been to in your very provincial existence - post videos of their cars racing, just driving, or on dynos. Some even zoom in on the results and you can see that around the world, the G13b has been built to make over 300hp and tuning shops exist to supply parts to make this happen. It is not a unicorn.

so, the K12 and K14 engines are newer and since I used this thing called logic....something else you should find time to look into....I conclude that newer engines with better designs & engineering offer better flow rates while not suffering from the fatigue that a 20+ year old engine would. Stock, the K14 is right there with the G13b and I am assuming that boosted the K14 will be right with the G13b. I may be wrong, but I made a most reasonable conclusion.

Quote:
Whoever decides to pursue the K12/14 as the basis of a performance build will be pioneering with their efforts - and that comes with the associated burdens of time and money.


So, considering a shop here in Japan already made a K10a with over 370hp, someone will be doing similar power with a K12 or K14 and it is likely that they are not going to be on this website. However, the world and the internet being what it is, one has to begin searching somewhere and thinking out loud can help the process now and for those who will read this thread in years to come.


Last edited by ishigakisensei on Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:09 pm 
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Dattman wrote:
FIA regulations state any petrol engine which has forced induction caries a 1.7 multiplication factor to promote parity, ie 1.0 turbo is equivalent to a 1.7L naturally aspirated engine, Rotary engines also carry a multiplication factor which is 1.8, so a 12a is equivalent of a 2.16L .
Most motorsport authorities around the world use these FIA correction factors in class rules, actual class rules vary widely but in many classes there is often 0-1300cc, 1301-1600cc, 1601-2000cc etc I've also seen 0-1450cc and 1401-1850cc, 1851-2500 etc,
The reason I mentioned cubic capacity rules is it wouldn't make sense to use a K12 or K14 if you have no need to, as YLD80Y mentioned the M16 engine is what people are developing, why re-invent the wheel?


This is important information for those who want to build a race motor. However, the OP look to be interesting in building a street car where there are no stupid restrictions on what an engine can be made to do.


Quote:
As for me personally, here in New Zealand most clubs run a strict 0-1300cc class, no overbores allowed so once a g13b block wears out and becomes oval like mine, I have to look for a low km round block to rebuild from, which is getting more and more difficult, if it wasn't for the awful gearbox options then I'd consider developing a k12.


Project Muro made a K10a with more than 370hp in a FR Cappuccino, so something must exist in FF form for 100+ hp from a tuned K12? Perhaps in time.....


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:11 am 
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ishigakisensei wrote:
Ah, I fully see why you have a lack of understanding. Perhaps I can help. There is this thing called the internet. Its really amazing. There is a great deal of information to be found. A site called YouTube has things called videos online....told you the internet was amazing....where people around the world - you know, places you've never been to in your very provincial existence - post videos of their cars racing, just driving, or on dynos. Some even zoom in on the results and you can see that around the world, the G13b has been built to make over 300hp and tuning shops exist to supply parts to make this happen. It is not a unicorn.


Here I am thinking that YouTube was just memes and funny cat videos. Excuse me, I'm off to learn from the internet, where nobody has ever told a lie, and all facts are credible and documented.

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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:58 am 
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cheers for the input on the gearbox dattman.

(PRC) Production Rally Class break at 1400,1600 and 2000 and with a substitute engine rule(pending application) the K14 might be a economical option for me. :D

The lack of an off-the-shelf LSD could be a deal breaker though.

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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:43 pm 
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K14b would be ideal with its 82mm stroke for what Im after

but for NA 1.3 or 2.0 boosted racing a K12 would be an issue.
For NA just an overbore more common means more chances
of getting a good and cheap k12.

However if AWD boxes are an issue so I could be looking at
an alternative box maybe even RWD box as the Lapin has a
live rear axle which seems to be a jimny one, easy for LSD.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:44 pm 
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SOBIL wrote:
(PRC) Production Rally Class break at 1400,1600 and 2000 and with a substitute engine rule(pending application) the K14 might be a economical option for me. :D


Personally I think the m13 with large frame box and mfactory close ratio gearset would be the best and most reliable combo for rallying, pretty short stroke engine so it should rev.

I have considered the K12 in NA form, I'm pretty sure 'Bali' in Hungary could make a new variant of the plate lsd's he makes for small G boxes, FDGti in Bulgaria can make any ratio final drive and it's no problem to get another set of my closer ratio 1st and 2nd gears made to suit the k box, gti 3rd and 4th gears are a direct fit, gti 5th gear will need some machining to fit.
It's do-able and you'd have a gearbox as strong as any small frame g series box, fine for street or lightweight track car but I'd be a little hesitant about rallying with it, not sure about lightweight flywheel and clutch options though.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:18 am 
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http://www.weiku.com/products/15253107/ ... 300cc.html

jet ski model no vvl

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Van-K14B ... 22193.html


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:06 pm 
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[YLD80Y] wrote:
Excuse me, I'm off to learn from the internet, where nobody has ever told a lie, and all facts are credible and documented.


When they are documented they are documented. I think you are using the word 'rare' too strictly because a tuned Swift is rare in one's day to day encounters. But they, just like 300hp G13B engines, do exist around the world and can be replicated with enough parts and money.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:48 am 
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Prob is not everyone has time to document, share or want to divulge their secrets/research time spent on getting suzi engines up to serious hp. There are many reasons but we see very little on any site about even Speedway efforts as the most obvious keep it all under wraps tuners.

After that the K14b is only available in some countries where already the swift is options with the bigger cap M series. Therefore its only the Kei car and eco box market where the M series 1.6 or 1.8 are too hard to come by.

At least in China they are made with non vvl which is interesting for the Jetski market

Any chance the fella with the Jetski K14 engine can take confirm its this model?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaYFWwymY3c


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:48 pm 
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Hmmmmmmm, word is that Suzuki is coming out with a 1.4L turbo:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/115082198056/new-suzuki-swift-sport-concept-could-bow-in-tokyo

Would have to be the K14b. If so, gotta be patient for some hoon crashes one to get the engine at a salvage yard.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:59 pm 
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with awd harder to lose control or hoon proof!

however the jetski motors are for us not the late hyrbid vvl and other complicated dual jet heads etc.

here is factory metal HG like on all K14b

http://japanese.alibaba.com/product-gs/ ... 68647.html

bearings yet still to find sizing
http://www.cart100.com/Product/13340887 ... andy_link/

pistons wow looks like we can use G16b for K series oversizes as well
as the dish on original K14b slugs are deep concave so combustion
chambers are very shallow in design like G16b sohc 16v heads
http://www.taodepot.com/item/9507962664


good news is K10,12,14 clutches are interchangeable
Japanese EXEDY EXEDY Big Dipper K10 /K12 /K14B /7140 clutch three-piece clutch
http://www.taodepot.com/item/38543326825


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:36 pm 
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rwd box
http://page13.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... r132098150


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:13 am 
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d wrote:
with awd harder to lose control or hoon proof!



Someone needs to run a redlight then! :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:04 pm 
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ishigakisensei wrote:
d wrote:
with awd harder to lose control or hoon proof!



Someone needs to run a redlight then! :twisted:


In Japan probably unintentionally rather than intentionally as in the west.

Ive seem plenty of distracted drivers driving right through red lights
without noticing or too busy with the dumming phones.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:33 am 
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Kind of old news, but.....

http://indianautosblog.com/2015/02/suzuki-sx4-s-cross-1-4-turbocharged-engine-china-168920


R's claims that they can get reliable 350hp out of a bored up M19 engine

http://www.rsrs.jp/en/spmodel2015/

Hmmmmmmmm.


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:04 pm 
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ishigakisensei wrote:
Project Muro made a K10a with more than 370hp in a FR Cappuccino, so something must exist in FF form for 100+ hp from a tuned K12? Perhaps in time.....



My wife called the Muro Bicycle Shop in Osaka and they said that they did not do the Cappuccino and do not know about it. So, it remains a mystery.......


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 Post subject: Re: K14B the future G13b ?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:43 am 
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I believe the peeps with the 370hp dont want to reveal any details to remain competitive in their class as you might understand after living in Japan that everyone copies everyone else.

Its not just Japan but Japanese have few innovators and plenty of copy cats with deep pockets so it wouldnt surprise me if they are keeping the cards close to their chests.

Well for me I have put in an order in mainland Japan for an AWD lapin as there are none here in the sub tropics as they are more of a snow bunny car.

However going through the fiche files it looks like the K14b and K6 engines dont have the same bolt on pattern which could be a real headache.

Im thinking the M13a cvt gearbox just has a bellhousing for the K14b and that being the case there arent many M series AWD boxes I could get my hands on. In your case maybe you cant use the original rwd box for the K14b but in all honesty you should consider using a jimny gearbox and an M18a with M16a non vvt head.


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