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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Thought you were being optimistic aiming to reuse the bearings. I pulled my new swift hubs with a slide hammer and they certainly couldn't be used. You should be able to buy new skf bearings for around $70 on flea bay provided you're happy to wait for them to be freighted.

I paid $120 for the pair of uprights, tie rods and hubs that I didn't want. The tie rods are useful for me as I'm running a power rack and that takes the same tie rod but the hubs are scrap.

The next step is to get hold of a new swift ball joint and then remove the ball joint from a GTi LCA and see what it looks like. No shortage of options for ball joints. Plenty on flea bay from the likes of Moog ( SZ-BJ-5080 ) and Bilstein ( 29826 ). Probably all made in China


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Yeah I just bought them from a local supplier....the lower joints that is.....no real saving waiting....they were $30 plus gst. Like you say.....most of them made in china....other option....go to local genuine dealer.....get a sale price for your first born child and take a mortgage out for the rest.

Do you have the bearing part number? Is it SKF B35? If so I'll get two on my next trip to the states.
Yes I was being rather hopeful wasn't I? I guess I'll need a new seal or two. After just buying the seals locally for the gti hubs.....$55 down the drain. Rrrrgh.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:48 am 
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Yes, B35 is the bearing listed for new swift but I haven't seen one to check it's correct. Can't see a separate seal listed.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:36 pm 
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No I found out the seals are within the bearing. its a one piece unit. Also the 1300 cc zc11s model is the same so any strut from a 2005 swift on should do the job except the swift sport.

Today I milled the struts down. Then started making the pockets for the ball joints I have. They do not fit straight into the control arms after removing the ball joint so I have had to remove material to allow the joint to fit through. In fact I have removed more than that so I can install a pocket. The pocket will have a "cap" on it to fit against the control arm to be tigged on. This will add the strength back where I have removed material. The end of the control arm is very thin but the nice strong cap on the pocket will make it stronger than it was before.

All in all the mod is going well.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:45 am 
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That's good to know about the bearings. I might order some SKF's from flea bay.

Looking at the picture there's certainly not much meat left at the end of those LCA's. Do you still think this is the correct approach or would the bolt on ball joint be stronger/safer?

What did you use to cut out the old ball joint?


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:07 pm 
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1. I ground it out with my rotary burr.
2. Yes it's very thin....I'm not happy with the first pockets...spoke to my engineer friend and he said to make new pockets with wider flanges....I'm going to make them even wider than the end of the control arm. The flanges are thicker than the control arm material. Bear in mind the pockets go through the control arm...the ball joint is 40mm....that hole in the control arm is 45mm. So the pocket has a 2.5mm wall thickness effectively replacing more mate I'll than was there before so I'll stick with this method and post results. Lachlan will Tig them in and he told me that make the flanges bigger and that it would be stronger. Obviously the previous joint was strong as it was welded in. The holes in the control arm were created by removing the original pocket so it's in the correct position. I believe biased it very slightly forward though....more castor....it's only a couple of mils though.

3. I asked Lachlan about the rod end with the mount on it and it would have most of its force taken by the two bolts and the weak point is the material it bolts to. So you might want to consider that as well.

I would love a to know how Dave did it....the swift ball joints are all the same size. You could leave the hole at 40mm for the joint and add 2.5mm to the picture but the joint needs a pocket about 11mm deep. Tell me your thoughts 8-[


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Wider flanges will certainly help. I guess it won't see much vertical load which I guess would be the direction it would be weakest. The only concern would be twisting under brakes, if it flexes it will crack.

I'm still in two minds as to the best approach. If I use bolt in ball joints then I need to fold a piece of plate to the width of the ball joint mount and tig/mig that into the bottom of the control arm. The bolts clamp the ball joint in place but they don't locate it. That's easy enough but it really requires a jig to ensure the ball joint is in the same location.

Looking at the photo of Dave's one the pocket looks the same size as the original so should be as strong and still looks like an OEM part. That's the ideal outcome if I can figure out a way to make it happen. I was trying to figure out how to center the LCA on the ball joint axis and turn out the existing socket. Unfortunately my lathe is way too small to swing something that big and I haven't thought of a work around.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:23 am 
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I cannot see how the same pocket could be used with a standard swift joint. All the swift joints should be 40mm to fit in the control arms. Unless he found something different. That pretty much removes the entire pocket.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:38 pm 
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I think I can see what he's done. If you take a GTi LCA and place a straight end between the two sharp points on the outside of the arm where the curve for the ball joint starts, it will pretty much pass straight through the center of the ball joint. If you look at the photo on Dave's group buy thread you can clearly see that the ball joint is mounted well behind that line. It could be as much as 10mm. As you've discovered, they will have decided the mounting the new pocket further back was the only way it would work. I guess it's the only way that they could safely mount the new swift ball joint in the GTi LCA but obviously is affects the length between centers. It probably also partly explains why some people seem to have difficultly setting static camber with these fitted.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Very observant Sam. I can see what you mean. I was determined to mount the ball in the same position. Lachlan says as long as I replace the material with that much larger flange it will be fine.
I'm in Houston currently and it's starting to piss down with hurricane Harvey. :shock:
But when I get home I'm going to make new pockets and I'll get lachlan to tig them in.

I guess the kits are made like this.....from my experience with this mod and from what we have determined through discussion.

If you look at Dave's uprights....they are ground off at the top and he says the hole is milled to allow camber adjustment. So with the pocket further back on the LCA you probably still need to set the top part of the upright on an angle to the strut using the adjustment available in that area to set the camber. I believe camber plates are also a requirement to ensure enough adjustment is available to set neg camber. Just my summation of it. I have not looked at the uprights closely enough to see if track is changed through the different mounting points between the gti and swift m15. It wouldn't be much.
In Dave's post he states that bolting up his kit made 1 degree of difference. ie. he lost 1 degree of neg camber but the extra castor and the roll centre adjustment made an immediate difference on the track. He went from 3.5 neg to 2.5 neg. he also stated that he assumed people fitting this kit was for track work and therefore had camber plates already.

I moved my camber plates on a 20 degree rearward angle to increase castor when on max camber adjustment. This moves the top of the strut 10mm rearward and changes the castor approximately 1 degree. So the same would be true if the LCA ball joint were moved 10mm back. Approximately 1 degree change just like Dave got.

Now I realise I should have moved that joint back a wee bit. Bugger.

Good spotting....I'll let you know also after setting up without and adjustment on the top of the upright if my camber is the same as before. The max I could get was 3 degrees neg on the camber plates.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:29 am 
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With your obvious intent and access to tools and skilled trades wouldn't a custom lower arm as per the FIA GTi homologation papers or similar be a better idea. fix all the LCA problems in one go!

GTP


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:34 am 
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Hi gtpswift. I guess just the time and effort to get everything together making sure the left and right are the same...it just seems a heck of a lot more work than turning up a pocket and welding it in. Cheers for suggesting it though. I looked up the FIA papers and found them.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:20 am 
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Some interesting stuff in them isn't there. especially for a race car.

GTP


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Yes, would have been great to have all those bits to play with.

The biggest problem with trying to build one of the LCA's from the homologation is that there isn't any information that tells you the dimensions of what you'd be making. Also, at least two of the four are aimed at being used with custom uprights so where do you stop. While interesting it's all been and gone now so any mods might as well be just what you can see a performance advantage in.

I think provided the arm is strong enough then leaving the ball joint in the original location would be a much better solution. A can't think of any advantage to making the LCA shorter, in fact I would have thought the opposite would be true. What are you turning the pockets out of?


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Sam..I believe the bit I had was 1018 but I'll take Lachlan's advice as he is going to supply the piece I can machine with the larger flange. Too hard and I won't be able to machine it but personally I think medium grade carbon steel will be fine....the pocket will be stronger than the material it's welded too.
Hey unfortunately Mike could only locate one spare underdrive pulley that he had to drill for me. Sorry I couldn't come through there.
My parts are on the way to Los Angeles....I go there next week....when I get back with them the block, head, crank, flywheel and pulley go into the engine rebuilders for work. A week later I should be putting the engine together... =D> Then I have to decide how to get it running. (Chip etc)
I have had two sets of cams done by mike. One set cultus cams....hollow....and one set solids. Both 222/365 grind. I'm keeping the solids. I'm going to put the hollow cams up for sale. I have bought a 52mm throttle body that was bored from the original from a guy in Florida.


Gtpswift....yes it was interesting to go through that document. The tubular LCA looked great...I'm going to forge ahead with the stock ones and modify them though...I have already taken this car far further than I intended. 8-[ still I enjoy the twiddling around in the workshop.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:11 am 
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Back from Houston....normally a 5 day trip....was a 10 day trip. Hurricane Harvey. Now missed my trip to LA due to rest so engine parts stuck in LA. Small issue...one I can get sorted quite quickly unlike some of those greatly affected by Harvey. Thoughts go out to them.

Sam. Moving the joint back on the LCA is helping to exacerbate the loss of negative camber caused by lowering the LCA by 40mm. In correcting the roll centre by dropping the LCA it effectively pulls the lower joint in further. All the more reason to grind off the top of the new swift strut and mill the top hole to allow more neg camber again. Through a bit of Trig (at 3 am due to unable to sleep...something you suffer when changing time zones a lot) I've worked out I'll lose around .6 degrees camber and if I moved the ball joint back 10mm it would be another 1.14 degrees. (Assuming the strut top to ball joint is around 500mm....that's a guess)
I have also turned the top plates 20 degrees to increase castor and therefore again lost a little bit of negative camber.
I'm going to fit it all up ithout the spring....level the car on the hoist....put the wheel on and adjust the strut to sit at the intended ride height under the guard. Then I'll measure castor and camber....see where it lies....adjust the top of the new swift strut bolt hole accordingly so I can max at 3 degrees neg. maybe I won't have to mill the top hole at all. With all the extra castor....I should not have to run much more than 2 degrees negative. From everything I have read it seems I should maximise castor to run high neg camber during turns but minimise neg camber when the wheels are straight.
After all that I'm feeling tired again....better try more sleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:57 pm 
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got a trip to LA on Friday. Excellent! Pick up parts for motor.

New big flanged pockets for the mod. They will be welded on the top...then the outside will need to be linished off to just miss the brake disc protector. They are 65mm outer diameter. They are 10.2mm deep. They will be welded both sides. (tig by pro) The interference fit is 4 thou. The flange is 4.2 mm thick....larger than the LCA which is around 3.5mm.

Might look a bit odd but once on the car no one will see them and they will be stronger than original. =D>


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:57 pm 
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They look good.

While I can understand why they'd move the ball joint location I guess I'm not convinced that effectively making the LCA shorter is a good idea. I know that the car should now require less static camber but I'm still thinking that I'd modify the LCA to retain the original location if possible.

I haven't done anything with mine as yet, still too busy with lambing for a few more weeks. When I start on it I think the first thing I'll make is a jig from box section that will allow me to recreate the LCA to the same dimensions. I'm still in two minds as to whether to use new Swift or Astina ball joints. If I use the new Swift ball joint, I was thinking along the lines of using a D shaped plate on the underside of the LCA so that what remains of the LCA ball joint mount is effectively reinforced from both sides. It would mean that the pocket flange doesn't need to be excessively strong and would be significantly stronger then oem. If I use the Astina ball joints then the approach will be similar except that the plate will be folded to locate the ball joint mount.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Yes Lachlan suggested a plate on the lower side to pick up both sides of the LCA but as you can see there is not a lot of meat left if installing a pocket as the joints are 40mm. Fitting any flange to the underside won't work that well in my situation. When Lachlan saw my pockets he said they are stronger than stock and welding them won't weaken the arm and I don't need a doubler plate on the bottom.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:42 am 
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Yes, looking at your photos again I see what you mean, the cutout for the pocket is wider than where the LCA is turned up so it would be quite difficult to do well. I reckon you could probably turn a bit more off the flange and still be quite safe but make it a little more compact. You probably don't need/want the brake protector for circuit so I wouldn't worry too much about clearing that.

What do you reckon the LCA has been stamped from? I'm guessing, given it's fabricated (welded), it can't be that hard.


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