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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:43 am 
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Location: Amberley
Nice alloy centric spacers.

With the bearings you'd be using are M15 bearings. The GTi hub and M15 hub are near enough the same except for the stud pattern. The idea is that you press out the GTi bearings and then fit M15 bearings in the GTi hub. I haven't looked for a Suzuki part # for them but the after market kits seem to retail for around $120inc so it should be possible to get them for 90-100 trade. I'm pretty sure there's only the one type for 04-10 M13/15.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:58 am 
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OK thanks Sam. Im not too far into the swap to change. I could mill the M15 uprights myself to fit.
I have not yet made pockets for the control arms. I have already ARP stud swapped the hubs but then id be using those so nothing really lost at this stage. I guess easier and cheaper to do this now rather than spend heaps on trying to get the bump right after using more parts. Plus get quicker steering as a bonus. Ill look into it.
Any M15 uprights? are there specific models? sorry i have not really looked into that very much so I guess I could search. I could still use the Evo 8 ball joints I guess....just pocket them a little lower.

The alloy spacers took ages to make. I am very slow on the machine but then its a chinese lathe and lets just say...it requires intimate knowledge of its inadequacies to get the best out of it...in other words its no tool room quality but for me it gets the job done. Parting off seems to be the issue...just about have to lock everything up solid to stop chatter as I break parting tools...right angle...coolant etc...

Still I could not get off the shelf centres to suit the suzuki to honda Mod. Im thinking of milling out the 17mm thick spacers...they could be lighter I reckon. If you look at the back of the honda wheel it has pockets in the centre where the wheel contacts the disc hub. I might take all that material off the spacers to a depth of about 12mm. I have seen much lighter spacers around. each spacer weighs approx .5 kg.


Last edited by swift12 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:20 am 
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Location: Amberley
I'm not aware of there being multiple options for the uprights. I just looked for 04-10 uprights from a M15 powered swift and they look to be correct although I haven't finished and fitted them yet. From memory the strut mounts required 2mm from each side to fit my Konis. I just did this with an end mill in a collet on the lathe and the upright clamped in a vertical slide. There's plenty of swifts in wreckers so it shouldn't be hard to find uprights locally although pricing seems to vary.

This is what I do for parting off ( rightly or wrongly ):
T shaped sharp tool.
Tool at an exact right angle to the job.
Tool cutting edge height at the center of rotation.
Tool in a rock solid quick change holder.
Plenty of A-9 lube for alloy.
Speed around half that used for turning.

My lathe is a Myford ML7, old but in good order and has most of the extras like steadies, vertical slide and rotary table. Hours of entertainment.

What are you using for gearbox bearings? I have one to refresh and was tossing up whether to price Suzuki parts or just look for the correct bearings from my local engineering supplies.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:09 am 
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Location: NZ
Hi Sam. I have sourced my bearings from flea bay. Bearings are all koyo which seem to be what has come out. $90 USD approx including new brass rings. I checked to ensure they are not knock offs but who the hell would know. A lot of bearings are made in china now anyway in factories under licence to the manufacturers. I have just used the mark one eyeball to verify plus how they are packaged. SKF has factories in China but I guess it's the QC that's important. Locally you may be in for a jolly good shafting for the same bearings. I might have a spare set at home through a supplier that was slow so I ordered another set through amazon prime in time for a trip. Can have a look when I get home Tuesday if you want but can't be sure if I've already used parts from it. As far as part goes I think my cross slide is part of the issue. It can become a bit loose just when you don't want it too. A wee mod would fix it. The feed bearing ties up (radial?) if the end nut is done up too tight so it needs to be left hand tight which is off course no good. If it chatters the nut loosens and it's worse with parting. It's not the only thing I have had to fix on it


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Just be extremely careful getting bearings from anywhere other than suzuki, NZswift bought some from a local bearing shop and the part numbers matched etc except when I assembled the box and I couldn't get 5th gear circlip on, turns out the input shaft bearing was approx 0.5mm thicker than the oem one and threw out the spacing for everything else on the shaft, I assembled that box 3 times from memory figuring that one out, now I just pay a few dollars more and get my bearings from Holland Suzuki.

I'm not saying only get oem but just make sure you measure everything accurately against what came out of the box if you are going to use non oem.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:48 am 
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Location: NZ
I definitely mic bearings....they should be exact to the last thou. Plus the clearance...mostly c3


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Location: Amberley
I have two boxes to do. One is a hybrid syncro box. I'd be happy to buy the flea bay kit for that one provided it's complete in terms of bearings and seals.

The other is a CR dog box and I was planning to use brand name stuff for that one. I've found the SKF part numbers for all the bearings so I'll probably use either SKF or Timken. The OEM bearings I suspect will be Koyo, which is ok but I'd prefer to use SKF.

It's pretty easy to check the dimensions of the Koyo bearings from the numbers and match those to the SKF or Timken catalog. If they're the same then they should be correct but yes I'll measure before I install.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:50 pm 
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I don't blame you Sam...I'd use brand name from a reputable source too if I had a dog box. If it's worth that much money it's worth the best bearings. I'd use the same top quality bearings. When I went to Shanghai I bought some SKF bearings for my off roader....little shop in the industrial district....SKF boxes....they say genuine....out of the SKF factory in china.....(SKF freely admits Chinese factories and I have no reason to doubt they are serious about QC in these factories....http://www.skf.com/cn/en/our-company/SK ... index.html) but it's hard to tell....they are very good at reproductions....just sometimes not QC. The bearings I bought look good....less than 1/2 price in NZ. :roll:

I have the evo 8 roll centre adjusters....mmm....the joints look great but the shafts look like nearly 20mm! I used a USA cent which is 19mm and the shaft was slightly bigger. Don't know if I want to take that much meat out of the lower mounts....I'll ask my engineer friend. The base is much smaller than the mustang ones....so easier to make pockets that fit.

I'm off to see a guy in palmy when I get home about some hubs off the m15 swift. I see the bolt on Mazda ball joints would work well....just took a look....could place them anywhere on the control arm after removing the outer portion on the end....add camber/track plus I see a possibility of bias to the front of the control arm increasing castor? But I don't know if changing any of those screw up other settings like Ackerman and bump steer etc....that would be a good chime in for Dattman....that's beyond my mechanical pay grade! Plus the astina ball joints are cheap too.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:51 am 
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May I ask a dumb question? The m 15 powered swift with the correct hubs is what model code car. I stuffed the guy in palmy the other day saying m15....so I guess it's any new swift 2005 on but not the sport and it must have a 1500 or 1600 engine?

Even if I do the same as you I could move these evo joints to a Mitzi fan boy pretty easily...they look very nice. Go the new strut, SKF b35 bearings (?) and the astina joints. Do I have to use the new swift discs? I can redrill for 114.3 and centrebore the disc hub accurately as I have a rotary table for the mill that's indexed in degrees. I already have newly rebuilt new swift calipers and endless pads for them. I know more cost....time in the shed etc....but I love the mechanical challenges....and the cost appears worth it if handling is greatly improved especially if ticking so many boxes in one mod. Has anyone looked at the unsprung weight cost of this mod at all?
The hubs etc look to be beefier....the ball joint adds weight....longer studs in the hubs I have had to already do and spacers for the integra wheels.....I believe I'm at least 1.75 kg ahead per wheel going to the integra's including the arp studs and spacers just due to my last rims being heavy. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:36 pm 
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I think these days we can't be too hung up with the country of manufacture. Reality is that every manufacturer aims for the lowest of cost of production. As long as I'm sure I'm buying bearings from SKF or Timken and not a knock off then that's probably the best I can do.

The positioning of the Mazda ball joint was my concern as well. That's why I intended making a jig to ensure that I could reproduce the same setup as the original control arm. If I did change the position then I wanted to see what affect that would have on the setup both statically and under load. That's why I was trying to find some software that would calculate the affect of lengthening the control arm and/or moving the ball joint position forward. Any change would be limited by the drive shafts as well. My initial thoughts were that I'd start with reproducing the standard control arm. I liked the idea of the increased ball joint size and being serviceable plus the roll center and bump steer correction so that's probably enough for starters.

The Mazda ball joints are cheap. I bought one new ball joint to experiment with from Stocks for $20. I'm sure it's of dubious quality but perfect to see what works.

One observation with the gearboxes, both of my boxes have too much end float in the C/S. With my old hybrid syncro box I assumed it was just wear as the bearings were visually tired and the end plate spacer was a bit chewed. The dog box also has more float than if it had been setup as per the book but it was visually fine. This left me wondering whether it was deliberate or just one of the first things to wear. Can't say I've ever pull down a high mileage production box to see what wears. I guess that might be a Derek or Dave question, whether to setup the C/S spaced as per the manual or whether there's an advantage to running a larger tolerance?

I have most of the suspension parts sitting in my workshop so I'll take some weights and post a reply to those other questions tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Location: NZ
Thanks Sam.

Yes I agree on the country of manufacture. Quality Control is the most important issue and buying from a reputable source should cover it. I went to hire a concrete drill once...it was as almost as much as buying an Ozito from Bunnings. So I bought the ozito with the full intention of killing it by drilling 10 20mm holes to 180mm for my hoist. I hit re bar on 4 holes. I got them all done. Then put a wall in, my lathe, my mill and a few other holes....that friggin ozito is still going!

In my manual it states quite a bit of preload on the C/S bearings. I erred on the side of conservatism and set a minimum on the spacers....I now believe that was a mistake. The aluminium case will expand with heat more than the C/S....plus a small amount of settling in after rebuilding probably yielded a loose counter shaft. Next box I'm going with a few more thou on the preload for sure....not outside the manual specs....but on the high side.

The swift parts I'm after would be a ZD11 model? Cheers g


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:24 pm 
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I'm no expert on the new swift model numbers but I'm pretty sure the ZD11 is the M13 powered model of the same era. Chances are the uprights are the same. The ones I bought were from a M15 ( 1500 ) powered car ( SUZUKI SWIFT ZC21S M15A 2005-2010 ).

The sport uprights won't work as the brake mounts are different. I did wonder though, for anyone starting from scratch, whether you could run swift sport struts, uprights, hubs and brakes. I guess it would depend on the driveshafts and changing the rear hub to 5x114.

I haven't tried the brake setup for real but as I understand it the idea is to run new swift calipers on GTi rotors, if you're just doing the new swift brake conversion. That would imply that new swift calipers on new swift uprights must be ok or very close. I run Wilwoods so I haven't looked too closely at the new swift brake option.

The picture below is a Koni fitted to a new swift upright with a GTi hub, GTi rotor and new swift caliper. It all looks very close. I don't have a complete new swift bearing to test the clearance of the rotor and caliper.
Attachment:
IMG_4282.JPG
IMG_4282.JPG [ 2.1 MiB | Viewed 21 times ]


I've weighed some of the components. A GTi control arm (with ball joint ) is 2.8kg. A GTi control arm with the ball joint pin pushed out and a Mazda ball joint is 3.0kg. The weight penalty will be slightly less than the 200g indicated once the rest of the GTi ball joint is cut off. The GTi upright is 2.9kg and new swift one is 3.8 so a 900g penalty. I guess that doesn't worry me too much as it's a far stronger and more serviceable setup for gravel.

Are you having to run spacers for the type r wheels or is it just the centric rings? I need another set of 15's but I want something that will clear the front brakes without spacers.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Cheers ...the centric rings just centre the spacers on the hubs as well as centre the wheel on the hub...so yes they are 17mm spacers. I was running a 35 et. Now that it's a 50 et I run the spacers. Looks like my studs are just long enough.

Thanks for the brake and hub info. I'll look into it. Cheers g


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:01 am 
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Location: Brisbane
The new swift(2005-2010 m15) uprights take new swift ball joints which you can buy online,these fit directly into the socket on the control arm when you remove the gti ball joint,theres no need for longer ball joints as the upright has a longer section from centre of bearing to lower pin mount.
gti hubs will press straight into m15 bearings.
I had some alloy dogbones cnc to space out the new swift calipers and use the swift sport (larger dia than m15) discs which were redrilled to suit 4 stud pattern.

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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Thanks Dave. I'd assumed I'd need to weld in a new socket to fit the new swift ball joint. Sounds like we don't need to. Would you mind confirming exactly what you did to swap the ball joints?


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Location: NZ
Firstly Dave....I realise you sell these kits in Aussie. If I were there i'd have one but the freight is a killer!
I assume by your free information that you are quite ok with any reproduction of your great ideas.

I found a ZC11 in a local wrecker. Its not an M15 though so Im unsure as to the hubs being ok. Its a 1300cc powered thing unless he has the details wrong. 2005. I can take the required metal off the upright and mill the mount for camber if needed.
$250 inc for both hubs and he will throw in the tie rod ends. any comments?

I bought home the EVO8 ball joints and yet again I think I acted quick, decisively and wrong. The shafts are 20mm....a lot of meat to take out of the hubs....
If the bearings were ok on the new hubs...and I have made a tool to press the hubs apart would it be ok to reuse the bearings? I have new GTI hub seals inner and outer...will the inner fit the new spindle?
What is a good place to buy the new ball joints and Im also interested in Sams Q. re fitting to the LCA.

Its not too late to change what I am doing as the GTI hubs are set to go and your fix covers so many great mods in one go.

regards Glenn.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:04 am 
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hey Sam just realised....you run gravel. The guy that sold me the type r wheels was going to something a little stronger for rally type work. Great for the track and to be honest I do not know how strong they are....just a thought. cheers G

At 1kg penalty I lose a lot of the benefit of unsprung weight I have lost by changing wheels...but there is probably a case for the benefits of the mods (new swift uprights) to outweigh (no pun intended [-X ) the benefits I gained by reducing wheel weight. I guess I would end up being maybe 1/2 KG lighter each wheel with the heavier uprights but the type R wheels.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:21 am 
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That's correct. I've been doing gravel events over the winter but the roll center correction is for my tarmac setup. I have a set of Konis that I want to use for tarmac and I'll run the new swift uprights with those. The wheels I'm after are for tarmac as well.

I guess with the weight it's a case of reliability and handling verses unsprung weight. Certainly with gravel events the OEM ball joint becomes a repetitive problem. Changing for something bigger is a plus, changing for something serviceable is an even bigger plus.


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:53 am 
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well I did it....im selling the roll centre correction kits i have and going to the new swift mod. reason? I asked my engineer mate about taking out the meat on the bottom mount to fir the evo8 20mm shaft....he said....ummm...you would PROBABLY be ok but....that was enough for me. Its unlikely that you would get a stress fracture but like my mate said...the mount is made like it is for a reason and its only a road going car....stick it on a track....punish it....the only thing holding the suspension sideways and forward and back...under hard braking etc is that joint and the top of the shock.


put that with the failure to correct bump steer and the cost of the kit to correct that it makes sense to change direction at this point and go for the mod that helps in three or four areas....ill grind and polish the upright to remove weight...(theres a sensor mount there not needed etc) to reduce that negative as much as possible. There is a 2mm discrepency by a rough measure at the wreckers yard on the top of the mount to mill off....the upright looks identical to those in Daves pictures etc.

all I really need is two new ball joints. Im going to try reuse the bearings by careful removal etc...no need to replace if they are smooth etc. Tie rod ends look and feel excellent.

scored a wee bonus through work so thats going into the engine job....then i gotta stop spending money.... :roll: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Our little cultus racer
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:50 pm 
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OK...couple of things I found out about the "swap". I know these things are probably known already to some people but number with 1. I have found out the hard way.

1. You must replace the front wheel bearings....swapping from the new swift hub to the GTI hub won't work....the bearing inner comes off with the hub to be discarded. It leaves marks on the bearing as the balls on the outer race inside the upright do this on removal....plus there is nothing to grab the bearing inner to remove it safely from the hub unless you grind away the hub under the bearing. When you put the new ones together the pressure does not damage the bearings unlike removal. cost prob $100 but prob never touch them again. the seals are not the same as the gti


2. a lower joint is only about $35 from SAS. seems good quality.

3. the two uprights cost $250 and included the tie rod ends which still feel great.

4. the upright is 2mm wider at the top than the gti one....I'll remove 1mm from each side on the mill.

I think it will be worth the effort


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