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 Post subject: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
HI guys, well, its about time I put together a build thread. although its sort of a half build thread. Why?, cos I got the car pretty much built. But there is always room for improvements....

ROLL Credits here....

Richard (T3 Ragtop) for helping me source parts
Steve (Bewitched Gti) for helping me source parts and machine to suit)
Andy from Adaptronic Australia http://www.adaptronic.com.au for support and continuing faith.

So, without further ado... read on...

Note: this is also posted in Teamswift, and Dattman has already taken swipes :D

I have had a cultus GTi race car (whilst a race car, it is road legal...) for quite some time now. I since found out that it belonged to an elderly gentleman and two of his mates finished it quickly to get the car sold and out of the way.
Ever since I had it I have been chasing oil leaks. To the point that I ripped the engine out for a rebuild and put my spare cultus engine in.
It has been a lot of fun but I have had some ideas floating around in my head about what to do with it for quite some time. Especially since I would be stripping the engine down and performing a rebuild from top to bottom.
Insert gratuitous photos here...
Image
Image
Image
I have already taken advice from Dattman to move the belts to the roll cage. Much better.

Also, I have been quietly collecting bits and pieces for it and since I have been made redundant recently, I got some time to invest in it.

List of bits and pieces include...
Suspension:
    Whiteline sway bars
    Nolathane bushes
    Nolathane adjustable pillow mounts
    Turbinetech underbody brace
    adjustable toe bars.
I have a set of Koni's front and rear but they need refurbishing and that is not in the race budget right now.

Engine:
    Monster Tajima Pikes Peak head
    ARP Head Studs
    MLS head gasket
    Adjustable cam gears
    CMP sensor off of a J series engine machined to fit (thanks to BewitchedGTI)
    Aluminium underdrive pulley
    Injector Dynamics 1000 cc injectors (courtesy of Adaptronic Australia ltd)
    BMW COPS units (soon to be retired. I am getting Toyota Yaris COPS with injectors incorporated)
    Stand off oil filter mount with Oil pressure and temperature sensors
    Innovate LC-1 Wideband sensor
    G16 series sump with cutout for crank sensor (thanks to BewitchedGTI)
    G16 series oil pump with crank sensor mount (thanks to BewitchedGTI)
    Ford EDIS trigger wheel and super duper sensors and signal conditioning boards pretested and supplied by t3 ragtop
    4:1 headers
    MK1 fuel rail without regulator or pulse damper
    fuel pressure regulator
    Walbro intank fuel pump
    Suzukisport LSD courtesy of Strider

Engine Management
    Adaptronic Select 440 from http://www.adaptronic.com.au
    MAP sensor (on board the unit!)
    MAT sensor
    Hall effect sensors for each hub (will tell you why later)
    dash switches etc etc.

(Inserting more gratuitous photos here...)
Variable cam gears
Image
Pikes Peak Monster Tajima head
Image
Suzukisport LSD
Image
Ford EDIS trigger wheel and underdrive pulley
Image
Hall effect sensors and signal conditioning boards
Image
Honeywell VR sensors for vehicle speed sensing
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Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors (thanks to Adaptronic)
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BMW COPS units (note: no ignitor on board)
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CMP sensor from Suzuki J series engine
Image
Air temp Sensor courtesy of Adaptronic
Image


and last but not in any way least.....
Image

Questions arise about some of the decisions I made on the way through. A key one would be "why Adaptronic?"
Well here is why. I reviewed the well supported ECU's available here in New Zealand and OZ. I compared four aspects.
1. Functionality
2. Software tuning and display capability
3. Documentation quality and completeness
4. Cost.

From my research, Adaptronic won hands down on 2, 3 and 4
Functionality was pretty much on a common footing across each platform. (but again, Adaptronic gave me most functionality for the dollar invested)

And here is the kicker, Adaptronic support is exceptional. No question is too stupid, but do NOT ask the same stupid question twice. In saying that, the two installation and setup manuals that come with it, are exceptional as well. Most of the stupid questions are answered in here anyways and more than likely, you will be directed to the appropriate pages.
Even better, you can also buy a loom that will plug into the existing GTi loom and there is even a set of parameters preset for G13B twincams. That is, of course, IF you want to run the engine with injectors wired in parallel being batch fired AND live with a single channel ignition system and use the distributor.

I decided that it would be senseless to install Adaptronic and NOT use its capability to the maximum.
SO, on the list of functionality I want to install into the race car (aside from the engine actually turning over) are:

    Full sequential Injection
    Direct Fire Ignition
    Launch control
    Traction control (rudimentary, when it sees slippage from driven wheels to dragging wheels, it plays with the ignition to reduce loss of traction)
    Pit lane speed control
    Flat shifting capability
    VE based open loop tuning (means you can map fuel and ignition without the need for a dyno)
A car that idles is also probably on the hit list as well...

In order to achieve the first two items, I had to replace the injectors and run some more string, as the GTi injectors are run in parallel, ie all four fire at once.
COPS were the order of the day also. I tried using the BMW cops off of an E50 series engine. They have no ignitor on board so using them would have meant I would need four ignitors bolted somewhere in the engine bay.
Messy...

This led me to purchase some Toyota Yaris COPS units.
To purchase from Toyota.... $180 each. And then you need to get the connectors and loom them.

I did some research and found a place I can get knock offs for about 40 bucks each and get the connectors complete with wires (China). They are ordered and according to the manufacturers... in the post....

I also had to work out a way to sense both crank and cam position. This proved to be an evolutionary workstream that changed three times even before I decided what approach I should take, and also invest good money in trigger systems to play with.

Initially I was going to use the existing distributor reluctor wheel in conjunction with a ford EDIS trigger wheel mounted on the underdrive pulley.
Richard (T3Ragtop on Teamswift) convinced me to go to a secondary sensor on one of the cam gears and use a superb little neo magnet (drill a hole in the lip and insert the magnet in the gear itself) to trigger a sensor up there. ie, mount the sensor through the lip of the rocker cover.
Messy.....

This was before I had decided to go Adaptronic.
The Adaptronic ECU is known to work with the GTi dizzie reluctor. For those of you who do not know, there are four sets of three teeth on the dizzie shaft. the angles are: 91, 61 and 6 degrees for each cylinder... No secret, but there you go.

But I didn't want to go with the stock dizzie poking way out in the air when there was no need for it.
Messy.....

Then I got to thinking about what was out there in the Suzuki world.

Crank Sense.
I found out that the later G16 engines had a crank sensor mounted "in" the oil pump casing, and the trigger wheel was behind the pulley. I went for this option thinking it would be simpler to keep maintained than having an EDIS wheel and sensor hanging out there. Good idea.
And Mr Cormie (Bewitched Gti) came up with the goods. One oil pump housing, sensor and sump.

Cam Sense.
I then put my mind to cam sense and found the J series engines had CMP sensors instead of distributors. With a little help from my friends (aka Bewitched Gti again), I got a J series cam (Suzuki call them CMP sensors) sensor machined to fit the G series head (the barrel of the sensor that fits into the head is too large).
The only gotcha was that the lugs that engage with the cam, were 2mm too short for my liking. So I am getting one turned up to better fit. (thanks to my son doing an Engineering diploma/ degree)
While the J series lugs fitted, they were just a little too "on the edge" for my liking.

Shock horror, the J series trigger wheel had TWO opto sensors in it. One tapped out a pulse every degree of rotation, and the other sensor monitored a second set of slots, each of which identified which cylinder was firing.

After getting my head around the maths and mechanics, I realised I no longer needed any sensors whatsoever on the crank. The one CMP sensor could deliver the right signals to the Adaptronic for both cam and crank position.
Special NOTE: a J series V6 CMP sensor CAN be used, but you will have to get a four cyl trigger wheel.
IF you cannot source a J series 4 cyl wheel, THEN steal one from a Nissan CA18 or RB20. The trigger wheels are basically the same AND they fit without having to play.

Where are we at today?

I have been slogging through routing the wiring loom. I purchased a weatherpak connector kit from ebay and I am making up each string, both testing each cable and testing what I connect to.
I punched a hole through the firewall where the left hand drive loom goes.
I am cabling up everything in parallel.
I'm using a rubber boot from an old loom. This should make life easier when I come to swap out the new wiring for the old. Once the engine is firing and I see all the relevant signals and triggers on the Adaptronic setup software, I can then weed out the wiring I am not using.

The dash.
The race car has no dash. it has an instrument cluster. I need the cluster even for the Adaptronic, (well initially) because I need to feed the vehicle speed sensor off of it.
I was thinking about folding metal plate to build a centre console to mount some indicators, switches and gauges, but one thing kept nagging me. The car has no airflow to the windscreen.

SO, I sacrificed 3 kgs (figure I can lose 3 kgs to compensate), and ripped the guts out of a mk2 dash. Got rid of the extraneous crap and carved it down until it fitted. (the instrument cluster was off a mk2, but the builders mounted it on the front bar of the roll cage, so the stock recess for the cluster did not work)

Switches and Bling...
The Adaptronic can soft program LED's and switches for a multitude of inputs and outputs. Initially, they will be used for learning mode (VE Tuning).
Eventually, they will be indicators of functions being on or off like pit lane speed control, launch control, traction control etc etc.
I also wanted to mount some switches on the dash to turn these functions on and off.
(I will also mount a switch on the steering wheel and connect using an old telephone curly cord, but that will be later)

First shot, loom for switches and LEDS.
Image

next shot, master ignition and ignition switch
Image

now what it looks like from the front
Image

And installed in the dash
Image


Lessons learned to date.
Document EVERYTHING.
Check, double check, then triple check. I made dumb mistakes along the way corrected when I rechecked stuff after a spell away from it. You can immerse yourself too much in something like this and make mistakes trying to rush it late at night or in low light.
I have created a table for wiring. Showing me what wire from the Adaptronic goes where in the existing loom.
useful for fault finding at a later date.


More to come.....
I really only have to connect the inputs and outputs and power into the original loom and I am done. Ready for first start. (hang on. first start on the cultus engine in the car, NOT the monster headed one...) Things like fuel pump, electrical load, ignition and accessory cables.

But this next week, I am taking a break and going bush. Panning for gold on the west coast of the south island. Gotta pay for this s**t somehow.

Stay tuned for the next instalment...

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:55 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: Kurrajong
Good write up mate! The car looks like it will be a blast, would love some more info on the rear diff, viscous set up if it is awd?

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CONVO RACING


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:21 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:16 pm
Posts: 3229
Location: Perth WA
I provided mechanical solutions, but you've made the electronics interface with them
Simply awesome to see your efforts paying dividends =D>
What are you doing for brakes etc
:wink: Any chance the son of yours might CNC lighter material wheel hubs (or uprights/knuckles for that matter)
How's the 3kg diet coming along? I lose that much just by skipping my morning coffee

"whitey tightey" well "you white boys work fast, doncha" (f&f) 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:04 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Byron and Tweed Hds
Very neat machine there mate. 8)
Good to see a few pics, (and informative as ever.)
Look forward to further progress reports.
=D>

_________________
Let your freak flag fly.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 am
Posts: 1526
Location: Londoninium
can we have a look at the ports and chamber of that Monster head. Would be interesting to see. Do you know any history on the head, how it came to be on your car?
Also I always think a factory dash shell looks so much better than nothing, or usually better than a alloy skin
Car looks good and should go OK.
Cheers

GTP


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
buzza9 wrote:
Good write up mate! The car looks like it will be a blast, would love some more info on the rear diff, viscous set up if it is awd?


No its a fwd cultus. But I do have a 1600 awd shell sitting outside... :-)

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
gtpswift wrote:
can we have a look at the ports and chamber of that Monster head. Would be interesting to see. Do you know any history on the head, how it came to be on your car?
Also I always think a factory dash shell looks so much better than nothing, or usually better than a alloy skin
Car looks good and should go OK.
Cheers

GTP


I think I covered this in a previous post yonks ago. Monster motorsports used to get their engines built in NZ by the Edgell brothers and then they were indented to the USA for the pikes peak challenges. Why? because it was easier that way than get things shipped from Japan. One year, Monster invited the Edgells' across to watch and "assist". End of the event, they normally junked the engines. This time, Monster asked if they wanted to take them back. so they did.

photos
Image
Image
Image

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


Last edited by ellpee on Tue May 14, 2013 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
Bewitched Gti wrote:
I provided mechanical solutions, but you've made the electronics interface with them
Simply awesome to see your efforts paying dividends =D>
What are you doing for brakes etc
:wink: Any chance the son of yours might CNC lighter material wheel hubs (or uprights/knuckles for that matter)
How's the 3kg diet coming along? I lose that much just by skipping my morning coffee

"whitey tightey" well "you white boys work fast, doncha" (f&f) 8)


Diets good. Working on a seefood diet...
Brakes are slotted rotors. stock at the moment. When I out perform the brakes, I will be upgrading. pads... well, I am tossing up whether to get some pads from Dave Homer. If he still does them...

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
Next step,
I have a few gauges to mount. Not really into gauge pods down the side (roll cage would get in the way anyhow) or how they were initially mounted on the roll cage front bar (no can do now there is a dash) I was looking to mount them in the dash itself, but was having issues in mounting them so they could still be easily seen from the drivers position angle.

Anyhow, logging onto the Adaptronic bbs, I find some enterprising chap has been able to develop an android app to do this...

Image
He also has programmed functionality to allow the dynamic VE tuning capability into the tablet. CHOICE!!!!!

SO I will be buying a 7 inch tablet for the car. this is on the wife's 10 inch tablet. I am pretty damn sure it would be noticed if it went awol...

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
AND the next instalment.

Image

The last piece of the puzzle. I went for Toyota COP's because they have an on board ignitor. This means a far simpler install and less clutter with coil packs mounted on the firewall or somewhere else.
After going through the merits of second hand versus new, I decided to go for new COP's.
Finding the right one to use was..... interesting. I was paranoid about ensuring the length of the shaft would be long enough to get through the rocker cover but not too long to make the install look spastic.
I did a fair bit of research and was assisted by a chap in Australia that had advertised in the past that he had sets for sale. Alas no longer, but he did measure them up for me and told me which part number was the best.

I rang the local Toyota dealers part dept. and got a quote for a set. I was quoted $180 and thought this was pretty fair. Until he told me this was for each unit....
So. onto the interweb. I looked through Ebay, but was a little disappointed. I researched some more to find the source. And I found it. A Chinese company that manufactures these puppies. I found price breaks to be very attractive on limited order quantities and promptly ordered a "sample" set.

Then connectors.... I had to source a set of connectors, preferably with pre wired pigtails. researched the interweb and bingo. Contacted a Chinese company and got a set of four samples sent to me.
These ignitors are four wire versions as they have positive, negative, ign. in and an ign. signal out.
Toyota use the signal out as feed back into their ECU for rpm sense. I will only use three wires. (think of the weight saving...)

Trial fitting the units into the rocker cover showed the need for a small collar to be machined. So, after getting a hunk of aluminium bar stock from a local engineer, and drawing up the design, its about to roll out of the workshop. (I tried to get permission to use the lathe and machine them myself, but the owner of the lathe is a little jealous of his baby)

OK now for the sales pitch.
After sourcing the parts and prewired connectors and crafting up the collars, I am thinking of putting this whole setup together as a package. With the assistance of Bewitched, We could put together a complete package for cam/crank sense and COPS. Stretching it, I could also deliver after market injectors with prewired connectors and pigtails ready to be wired into an aftermarket ecu.

I know the market is small, but volumes count. So here is what I am talking about.
A three part package, any part of which can be purchased individually.

1 A set of four Toyota CO P’s plus prewired connectors (wiring labelled of course…)
2 Suzuki J series CMP sensor machined to fit the G13B. (with a new lug machined to ensure correct fitment to the cam) (wiring labelled)
3 Injector Dynamics injectors (lets go for the babies… 725 cc) with prewired pigtails.

If anyone has interest, please drop me a pm. Once I get an idea of the numbers, I will be able to come up with how much these new fangled things will cost to put together.

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 1763
Location: Chch - Quake Capital
Go on and admitt it, you're a Fast and the furious fan... I can imagine you racing down the track with one hand while adjusting your ecu settings with the other hand, all while bolts are flying off your engine and you cursing google because it wants to update the app at the same time :lol:

Seriously the tablet and app will be a good tuning tool but if it was me I would be inclined to get more of a hardware solution for actually racing with.

Couldn't make time to call in and say hi on your way thru Christchurch Lin?


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:04 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Byron and Tweed Hds
Dattman wrote:
Go on and admitt it, you're a Fast and the furious fan... I can imagine you racing down the track with one hand while adjusting your ecu settings with the other hand, all while bolts are flying off your engine and you cursing google because it wants to update the app at the same time :lol:


:lol: =D>
I can see that too.

Great work mate, can't wait to see it run. (even if it is on youtube. :wink: )

_________________
Let your freak flag fly.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
Dattman wrote:
Go on and admitt it, you're a Fast and the furious fan... I can imagine you racing down the track with one hand while adjusting your ecu settings with the other hand, all while bolts are flying off your engine and you cursing google because it wants to update the app at the same time :lol:

Seriously the tablet and app will be a good tuning tool but if it was me I would be inclined to get more of a hardware solution for actually racing with.

Couldn't make time to call in and say hi on your way thru Christchurch Lin?


Yup, you got me.... Be looking to have a catch basket under the engine so I don't have to replace the bolts every time.
Yes, a good tuning tool. But also looking to see how good it is just as a gauge cluster....

Derek, the drive by will have to wait until next time. I was on a mission. Which did not get completed.... long story, short ending. Sorry mate

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:16 pm
Posts: 3229
Location: Perth WA
ellpee wrote:
... have a catch basket under the engine so I don't have to replace the bolts every time

:lol: funny you should say that, titanium sounds like rock when it gets dropped, so as im heading down the road, every pebble that skitters makes my wife jokingly say "there goes two dollars" (sounds like a bolt)


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 am
Posts: 2174
Location: Sunny Perth, West Australia
All your photos are dead and where's an update.... [-o<

_________________
GTi MOTORSPORT
Been quiet lately..still going to rallies.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:51 pm
Posts: 1763
Location: Chch - Quake Capital
yeah needs an update..., I'll give you an update then, he sent me a photo of his race shocks, turns out they are built by the same Koni guy, probably one year apart some time in the early nineties, mine are 102 and 103 and his are engraved 126,127, not many short body double adjustables were built in NZ.

I think Ellpee has been too busy herding eels and trout in the bottom paddock of his farm to work on his race car.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 1:59 pm 
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Location: Perth WA
From what I saw on Facebook, he's been substituting local road signs :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 378
Location: New Zealand
The only update I can give is a coat of dust. I have been out of it for a while and now have to transfer an engine, gearbox and interior from one shell to another to get my commuter back on the road.

Yeah suspension is being looked at. I will try and look at why the photo's are lost. My service provider had a big yoiks moment a couple of months ago. it could be they were toasted.

_________________
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HP dictates how fast you hit the wall
And torque is how much you push the wall out of true.


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 Post subject: Re: Whitey tightey
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 7:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Any news on this Lin?


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