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 Post subject: Flying Suzuki's
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:10 pm 
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This is a continuation on the topic I started here at http://www.redlinegti.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46475
As mentioned in the other topic, I'm long winded :lol:

Background: 53 yr old living in Yulara (Ayers Rock) running my own business. Am an A Grade motor mechanic qualified under two guys during my apprenticeship, one was trained by Harry Firth (HDT guru) and then by a guy who started his apprenticeship in a workshop/blacksmith shop and worked for Ford as a technical instructor for 25 yrs. Haven't worked as a mechanic for about 15 yrs but still in the automotive trades.

Okay, Lets's kick this story off at the beginning. Wanted to fly, private plane licences are costly, so started looking at the home build planes, again costly. Looked at ultralights, a lot safer now than the old water pipe and Briggs and Stratton engine types of the earlier years. Still the price range goes anywhere from about $15,000.00 s/h to about $70,000.00 for a pre-built ready to fly.
Looked at kits you assemble yourself, while cheaper some have never been approved for flight over distances or places I want to travel. Started looking for plans and after a couple of false starts found a guy in Canada who is an aircraft designer http://www.airtrikes.net/main.html that used to work for the USSR military who had approved plans and sold both kits, completed and plans.
Ordered them from him, while reading his site he has mention of how he used Sukuki engines, first the G10 and onto the G13BB and it made sense to me that apart from the cost factor (a new rotax ain't cheap) it was something I could rebuild myself. Of course I tarted researching the engine and not until I found this forum did I find what model car it came out of, as they are called a number of different names overseas. If you'd like to see the various engines and trikes he has fitted them to then go to http://www.airtrikes.net/engines.shtml.

Rear wheels and disc bake assembly with lines and master cyl (Black Max) has been ordered and have found 3 places that supply chrome moly and aircraft rated aluminium bar,plate and tube. If you are after such items then here are the 3 links I have so far in no order preference.
Andrews race cars in Syd http://www.andrewsracecars.com.au
Airport Metals in Mel http://www.airportmetals.com/
Performance Metals of Australia http://www.performancemetalsaustralia.com.au/

Found some good (IMHO) shock absorbers that would be ideal for this project but the guy is in the Ukraine (http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/10837494/Absorber_gass_oleo_For_Ultralight_Airplane/showimage.html) and haven't been able to find similar anywhere else on the net so far. I'll wait for the plans to arrive and I can use motor cycle shocks but liked the design and asthetics of them.

So to date I have: The plans coming, a manual for rewiring the Suzuki ECU to suit aero requirements on it's way, the rear wheel setup complete, front fork plates and foot pegs (aluminium) to make the front steering fork. The list of materials both pipe and hardware needed and last thing to do is decide what drive coupling to use on the motor and prop and size. I've decided on the Suzuki motor (of which more story will be forthcoming). I think I may have found a complete GTI in Brisbane, but have not contacted Nomadic privately yet about his services in this area.
Still to come is my plans for the rebuild of the engine specific to aero needs and of course I'll have questions along the way too. Feel free to post any links you may have in area's I have done so far. It helps not only me but others as well and anyone thinking of ever doing the same will appreciate the max amount of info they can get in one place.

(Psst ! wake up he's finished this post)
Told you I write long posts :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Suzuki's
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Sounds like a very interesting build.am going to keep an eye on this

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Suzuki's
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Engine selection.
Types that can be used in the project I'm undertaking (2 seater) can be Hirth, Rotax, BMW 1100 cc and of course Suzuki and even a VW converted to run on only 2 cyls! Other "plane" types use Mazda rotary, Subura Boxer type engines. There are smaller engines 2 stoke ones from the UK around 50 hp or less but are suitable for 1 seaters mainly. There are probably a whole lot more but these are just some of the type I've researched and remember.

Suzuki, for the weight of the engine and the hp output (out of a GTI) is an excellent choice. One has to balance out weight vs thrust (or hp). You have to fit in with the weight restrictions of the craft and fluids and passengers in the MTOW (maximum take off weight) but still have enought grunt to get you in the air. The wing and prop you use also is an important factor but that's another story. So for a light little engine with good reliabilty and grunt and cost factor as well as servicing you can see why I chose the Suzuki engine. In a lot of cases it's even lighter than some of the other options. It's used in gyrocopters too.

As to what I plan to do (and I'm open to suggestions and constructive criticism) to the engine is this:

Overhaul the motor, then I know what it has done and the condition it is in.

Get a slow drive pully for the alternator as the power/charging requirements are a lot less on this craft than a car's needs and saves battery charging issues. Plus I believe a couply of extra hp may be on offer from doing that. Each 1 hp gain is a 1% gain.

Look at cam shaft grind/options, while I don't want a "fire breather" an increase in torque in the lower/mid range is a benefit when driving a prop to get you in the air.

Make it breath better and it will be running on Av-gas (has lead in it) or if I touch done in an out of the way place then premium unleaded may be the only fuel available so some more info needs to be looked into by me on that.

The exhaust needs looking at because there is a Db restriction so no straight pipe into the air and lastly further investigation into oil, Aviation oils are designed for the varience's encountered in air temp. It can be ambient temp of say 30 - 40 degrees on the ground and 5 minutes later drop to near zero, and then back up again as altitude changes. Not too many cars and their oils experience such changes so quickly. So oil selection within what the motor requires vs what the environment it's going to be run in needs and it effects needs consideration. I was thinking of a full synthetic oil like Mobil 1 for instance but I'll be guided by members suggestions here plus on the replies I get back from the oil companies. Again cost one factor, but in the end I want best oil for the job the engine has to do.

If the engine needs a rebore to bring it back into line then so be it, whether a set of higher compression pistons goes in it is again in the "grey" area of my plans. Each hp gained is at a cost both money and stress on parts. I need something with the right amount of "grunt" but longevity and extended rebuiild life as well.

Outside of this project it makes me wonder what type of other uses the engine could be used for? I've seen VW engines used in planes, motor trikes, home made sand buggies, and used as compressors and generators as well as driving pump engines. All these uses the Suzuki engine could be used for, imagine one built into a buggy with a reduction drive instead of a gearbox, chain driven in a buggy, low weight lot's of grunt it would be awesome. Could be used in a boat too, cost/hp vs one of the big expensive out boards. Of course for each engine used like this means a car has ended it's career on the road. so we'll keep this just between ourselves so the market doesn't run dry ok :wink:

I have found a 95 GTI listed with no rego or RWC in Brisbane, but it's a whole car running and of course I don't need the whole car, just the engine and wiring and ecu/sensors. The 17 in wheels and tyres won't go well on this ultralight. I also have my son-in-law going around the wrecking yards as well. To dispose of a whole car out here is difficult as well as the cost of transport of it to here. I could part the remainder out to off-set the cost of just shipping the negine only but it's a nice little car (young girl onws it). If I go for the buy an engine only option I'll post the details of where the car is advertised in case someone after another complete car to play with. It would be a shame really to strip it all when it's in one piece but then Suzuki shouldn't have made such a damm fine engine!

One last thing if anyone can tell me, I've read that the Barina also used the same engine, does anybody know if the same hp (100 hp/73 kw) engine was used and secondly if the bellhousing pattern is the same? Most reduction drives are made to bolt to the Suzuki but if the specs' both in hp and bolt pattern are the same then you could help save a Suzuki's life. Of course that would mean this would not then be a story about a Suzuki powered project. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Suzuki's
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:09 am 
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awesome thread, looking forward to the results.

in answer to your last question, the barina has a G13BA, which is a single cam carby version of the G13B. will have the same bellhousing/block but only 50kw as opposed to the gti's 74kw.

some more info here G Series engine wiki

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Suzuki's
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Thanks for that, I don't want a barina engine then. Speaking of engines, I got a price from 3 different places today for an engine freighted out here.
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[*] Ok, I have this one in stock, price is $1500. Freight to Ayers Rock will be roughly $300
[*]You're looking at $1250 mate. That's a complete engine with all ancillaries, Manifold, Engine Looming and ECU. Freight up to NT should be around the $200-$250 mark.
[*]I have that good tested engine in stock for $850.00 inc gst with 3mths warranty, $1015.00 with 6mths warranty & $1200.00 with 12mths warranty. Delivery to Ayres rock is $350.00 inc gst.

Told them all I didn't want warranty as my intention is to rebuild it, but still they offered. I guess if it's running I can use it as a mock up during construction, run it to check things and then remove it an rebuild it. I have confirmed with them all that it's a 1300 4 cyl DOHC out of a Suzuki GTi injection fuel system and they have confirmed that too.
Prices are from QLD, NSW and Vic (but not in order of the above price listing).

So $1800.00/$1500.00/$1200.00. The $850.00 complete car mentioned in an earlier post (plus 1200.00 - 1400.00 freight) makes it out of touch and it's now been sold anyway.
Have pm'd Nomadic as a number of people have suggested and will await his reply on options he is able to supply/offer.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Suzuki's
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:35 pm 
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We're really enjoying reading this stuff Uncle!

So don't worry about long winded posts :lol:

You mentioned something in your initial post about not wanting a turbo..

I'm sure you have a good reason for it but I was wondering why, since you can a reliable G13B engine with twice the power and not much additional weight?!

You just don't want to take an ultralight over 500knots?!! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Flying Suzuki's
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:20 am 
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Well I'm relatively new to the flying scene but there is a MTOW of 450kg for a 2 seater ultralight trike under Australian regulations. So with the craft, the oil and fuel, radio etc and two pilots every kg you save is important. I know a turbo may not weigh much but no turbo weighs even less :lol: The extra power a turbo would give is not such a loss to the flyability of the craft and the longer you can travel to get to the next airport on 50 litres (equal's approx 35 kg in weight using Avgas).

Best not to run out of fuel when you're in the air. Although more distance is gained by gliding in the craft as well, for a new pilot that is something that comes with time and experience. As a beginner I'm still not keen on turning the engine off at 1000 ft or more and gliding :shock: yet. Even when the instructor does it, it still makes one concerned, have not had to take spare underwear yet!

Reduced stress on the engine, and any weight saved is a bonus. Also propellors come into it and what rpm rating they are certified at and what will fit, last thing you want is the wrong blade and it coming loose.

If I was builing a plane for instance then I would be inclined to look at turbo options, there are a few that have turbo Suzuki, Honda, Subura and Mazda Rotary engines in them.

Remember it's the push of the blade that gets you mobile but it's really only a hang gliding sail that is keeping you in the air. My mate and I have calculated that with the engine in and a full fuel load we could make Avalon in 5 stops (probably 4 really but to be on the safe side we planned on a small detour to ensure fuel so we would have a safety margin).

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