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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:12 pm 
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good luck captain, for your sake I truly hope that its nowhere near as bad as mine

I can only hope that Suzitech exrayed or pressure tested the block before rebuilding it for you

keep on them and hopefully you will get it back soon


BRAD

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:35 pm 
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Head gasket change

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:19 pm 
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Capt_Gherkin wrote:
Interestingly, he also advised me to get a less constrictive muffler - said the current one (triple baffled) is choking it and costing me about 10kW! Recommended an offset straight through muffler.


An "offset" or "straight through" muffler are two different things. An offset muffler has "S" shaped internals to reduce noise, but is also more restrictive than a straight through muffler, which as the name suggests has no internal baffles.

If noise is a concern, get a Lukey "Turbo" muffler. It is offset, but has deflector plates inside to help reduce restriction. I had one on my Swift and thought it was great - a nice burble but not deafening when you plant the loud pedal.

Fingers crossed on the overheating issue though. I hope you don't have Brad's experience with overheating, SuziTech style.

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:30 pm 
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[YLD80Y] wrote:

If noise is a concern, get a Lukey "Turbo" muffler. It is offset, but has deflector plates inside to help reduce restriction. I had one on my Swift and thought it was great - a nice burble but not deafening when you plant the loud pedal.

agreed.

im using a lukey turbo muffler on my turbo GTI and it sounds great, not to loud and a nice note

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Capt_Gherkin wrote:
it was on the dyno yesterday at Hitmans, but overheating, so back to Suzitech (on a towtruck) :roll:

Suspect a blocked radiator core, hopefully not a headgasket..

Hitman was impressed with it, especially the new turbo, "developing 50% more power down low than the old turbo, on only 9psi!" But then had to stop the dynotuning there to give it back to sort out the overheating.


The problems you could be having also could be to do with the block guard, we have had a few up here crack the blocks and the guys in the states have had the same problems, brads car may have fallen to the same problem, its the different expanding rates of the different metals, which is why we stopped using them up in qld. Great to here about the turbo, should make it alittle more :shock: just remember its not just the turbo, dwmdaves manifolds have had hours of flow testing and dyno runs its a combination of both.

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:18 pm 
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[YLD80Y] wrote:
An "offset" or "straight through" muffler are two different things. An offset muffler has "S" shaped internals to reduce noise, but is also more restrictive than a straight through muffler, which as the name suggests has no internal baffles.

If noise is a concern, get a Lukey "Turbo" muffler. It is offset, but has deflector plates inside to help reduce restriction. I had one on my Swift and thought it was great - a nice burble but not deafening when you plant the loud pedal.


Thanks - it is definitely the 'S'-shaped internals one which Hitman was describing when he called it an "offset straight through" muffler.

Will advise more on the overheating when I know more tomorrow..
Yes, it is pretty disconcerting!!

Another thing is that I kept an eye on the temp gauge and it was solid as a rock on 1/2way, as it always is. When I say I kept an eye on it, I obviously didn't stare continuously, but deliberately glanced at it probably 5 times or more within 40mins of driving.
Yet Hitman, getting the engine temp from the Haltech noticed that it was high (108C I think) and creeping higher.
He also said that some temp gauges are really more like a simple switch (Cold, Normal, High, Extreme or something like that..) not a true analog reading.
Any thoughts or experiences on that?

So my question is, do you trust the standard temp gauge dial, or get something more accurate? Also would it be worth getting a 'Coolant empty' sort of indicator light, which modern cars now have?
http://cpwstore.carpartswholesale.com/c ... ensor+tx18
Since if the coolant empties very quickly then the sensor will not be reading high since it is no longer in contact with the coolant, until it is too late.

Obviously having spent all this time & money I am a bit paranoid about cooking the engine! 8-[

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:05 pm 
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I run 4 temp gauges, motec, vdo, autometer, and stock, the stock gauge works as well as any of the after market ones, i run one one the exit of the block, on the entry of the water pump, and the motec is in the stock swift position.

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:37 pm 
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get warning lights. guages are good when you look at them. lights give you a warning when a threshhold is reached. Get a calibrated switch for say 110* and another for 65* or even coolant pressure low (after the waterpump). The other thing is get a BRIGHT oil pressure warning light. And not at 5psi but at 20psi. At 5psi you are already doing damage.

My mychron does that and it was one of the reasons i bought it (for the warning LIGHTS).

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:09 pm 
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Maybe your Haltec needed configuring to suit the sender?
I was calibrateing the adaptronic water temp the other day on my m18 swift and exactly half way on the std suzuki gauge was only 83degres C.I had a proffesional quality temp sender probe in the top hose mearsureing the exact temp so as to calibrate the adaptronic.If the actual temp was 108 C then you would have seen signs of the water pressurising more than normal or pushing into the overflow bottle.
Warning alarm lights can be configured as a output in your Haltec
A crude but effective tip used by a lot of race cars is to have the overflow pipe out of the expansion tank mounted up near the windsheild on the passenger side,that way as soon as it starts to boil over you will get either steam or coolant spray onto your screen, giving you time to pull over before it runs out of coolant.

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:23 pm 
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Thanks for that useful advice guys!

Tekkie - yes, the light sounds good and reminiscent of what Fast Eddie mentioned a while ago in that long Mt Panorama thread;
Quote:
I now have a big red and green light on the dash.
Green = change gears
Red = Turn the f%&cking motor off dickhead because there is no oil pressure.
Simple, yet effective.


Thanks Dave,
I will get some warning lights triggered by the Haltec, and I also think that overflow pipe idea is excellent too!! =D>

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:22 am 
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It may sound silly but to regurgitate what Dave said above how do they know it was overheating?

Was it pushing coolant out the overflow bottle?

Or were they simply going off the temp indicated in the Haltech software?
If so has the Haltech software / temperature sensor been calibrated properly?

Back when I had my headgasket / overheating problem it was pushing coolant out of radiator overflow under boost.
The car's stock temperature sensor indicates normally and correctly up to and over 100degrees C with my Adaptronic ECU. (It is calibrated to the sensor)
I have a 89 degrees c thermostat in my car so as soon as it starts to get up to mid to high 90's you know it is getting hot under the collar...
Once it started to spew coolant out over the floor of the dyno it was game over. :lol: :roll:

After the headgasket issue I have also fitted a higher rating 1.3 bar TRD radiator cap to my car.
A bigger radiator is also on my to do wish list as well.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from bad to worse!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:35 pm 
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Hi again,

It had started seeping before the car even came out of Suzitech (ie, it had barely idled – not been given any strain!) but they patched the hole initially with Defcon3 epoxy.
But then a couple of days later it has developed from a tiny seeping to a crack nearly the width of the block!!!

I have attached some pics I took this afternoon, and added a red dotted line about 1cm below the actual crack.

So a couple of questions;
1) How could this have happened?
- Fitting the block guard??
- Just unlucky with a hard-campaigned motor that came unstuck after tension was released for a while?
- Something else??

2) What are my options?
- welding looks futile given how quickly the crack has spread, and the possibility that it might be a catastrophe if it recurred!!
- another block, x-rayed this time, and re-fit everything plus new head gasket..
- put grouting in the bottom of the block to hold it firmer next time?

Pete says he has only ever seen this once before - on Brad's car.

ItsDamo, yes, the coolant overflow pipe popped itself out of the bottle and sprayed onto the windscreen is how it was seen.. Yes, I have a higher pressure cap already too..

This is pretty disappointing :oops: , still working out what to do next (had a chat with Abe today). Suzitech have already offered to share the cost of fitting another block.


Attachments:
File comment: dotted red line is just below the crack in the block!
block-crack-close-up.jpg
block-crack-close-up.jpg [ 1.01 MiB | Viewed 109 times ]
block-crack-close-up2.jpg
block-crack-close-up2.jpg [ 1004.64 KiB | Viewed 111 times ]
File comment: dotted red line is just below the crack in the block!
block-crack-pic.jpg
block-crack-pic.jpg [ 984.4 KiB | Viewed 108 times ]
File comment: dotted red line is just below the crack in the block!
block-crack-close-up2.jpg
block-crack-close-up2.jpg [ 1004.64 KiB | Viewed 118 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:14 am 
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That truely does suck.

To be fair it wouldn't have been a easy thing to spot for anyone.

As you have stated getting another block (crack tested and xrayed) looks like the only hope.
As Zuboo stated perhaps doing away with the block guard in the next block would be a good idea.


:idea: How about a group buy for custom made cast iron G13B blocks. #-o :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from bad to worse!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:54 am 
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Terrible news. Always a shame to see someone's hard earned folding stuff go down the chute. I would be gutted.

Capt_Gherkin wrote:
It had started seeping before the car even came out of Suzitech (ie, it had barely idled – not been given any strain!) but they patched the hole initially with Defcon3 epoxy.

So the block was weeping coolant and their solution was to stick some epoxy on it? Wow. I would hate to see their fix if the engine threw a rod... paper mache, builders putty? :lol:

Quote:
Pete says he has only ever seen this once before - on Brad's car.


It would be interesting to hear from Brad whether his engine had a block guard installed.

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:21 am 
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Ohhh suzitech strike again! Its a shame to hear it happend after spending that much money on the engine.

Hope all works out Capt

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:38 am 
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sorry to hear mate and to hear that was their solution with epoxy is shameful and pete should of known better he is meant to be a mechanic

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:00 am 
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thanks guys,

Just to clarify that this is my car's original block (it is not the TimGuyPerson block because that had to be discarded due to distorted cylinders :roll: ).
So the history of this block was very well known and it had never (in my time anyway) had any hint of a leak or an overheating problem.

So when it was found to leak when the engine was being pressure tested (a couple of days before I finally collected it, before even being started up I think), Pete was puzzled and said the only think he could think of was that after the re-boring and machining the deck he also had it washed to clear out any gunk or metal fragments, and that maybe cleaning out the gunk had unclogged some sort of microhole that was now seeping - thus the epoxy (applied with a vacuum in the cooling system to suck the epoxy a little into the block).
At that stage there was no sign of a crack at all, it was just coming from a single spot (which I marked in the 3rd pic).

The spot developed into a crack in the following few days - either when I was gently driving it ( I did not rev it past 3000rpm!) or when it was on the dyno (where it had less than 30secs of hard revving by Hitman).

I'm not making excuses for Suzitech, but my summary initially probably made it sound more dodgy than is fair! I'm definitely not letting Suzitech off the hook, but that is where we are at currently. Again, thanks for your comments and advice..

Re the Blockguard, I realise there are differing views on it, but Abe (whose engine building is obviously respected here too) was the one who advised that it was the best thing to do, so you have to choose sometimes!

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Last edited by Capt_Gherkin on Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:17 am 
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WOW! :shock:

If the block wasn't crack tested after boring / honing and cleaning and the crack only became evident due to coolant leak after the motor was all assembled and started that is a major case of bad luck.


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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from street tough to track day
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:22 pm 
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I would avoid block guards. If your concern do it properly and sleeve it.

Whoever built the engine has to many excuses. If they did really x-ray/ultrasonic test they would of seen the crack or micro hole as you described it.

If your car is a weekend warrior/track then i recommend you use E85 fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: GTi Build diary: from block guard to f%$#@d!!!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:47 pm 
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Dudes!

Again appreciated all your advice on this forum and by PM.

I've decided not to put in another block guard in the next block which is about to go in next week, but to do the grouting thing that DMWDave mentioned in this thread;
Quote:
All my hi hp engines are grout filled up to the water pump intake,this helps the rigidity of the block. I've only ever used a block guard in one engine and thats the one that cracked all the way around the bottom of the head studs.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14398&p=366276&hilit=guard#p366276

Many have advised not to do the block guard, and a few have maintained that it is worth doing. The bottom line seems to be that there are many who also have suffered block cracking, eg
Quote:
we have 3 guys here with GTis that installed a block guard, and 2 of them ended up with a cracked block. One of them had this happen twice. it cracks in the front and it leaks coolant.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php? ... rd#p280341

And so there are risks either way, but the downside of a blockguard is bigger!!!
So it is better not to do it than to do it poorly!

This PM from RUNUTS is a pretty good summary actually, (shared with permission!);
Quote:
Hi Mate

Sorry to see the recent damage to your engine.

You're block guard is the key reason this happened. Nothing wrong with block guards, just thought I'd clear that up first. Yours appears to be one of the suzukird guards. The problem with them, if you look at how it fits, is that it isnt made to suit your block. Some areas put the cylinders in tension. You can see it doesnt fit correctly, there are gaps in some areas, its tight in others. This tension, is compounded greatly once you get the water temp and combustion pressures up, and hence crack, bye bye block.

The only way, to successfully blockguard these blocks, is to half grout the bottom of the block, and have a guard made specifically to fit your block. Further more, it must be done, with the head studs in place and tensioned to take into consideration correct block distortion rates. Its a time consuming and expensive task, and to be honest, nobody on this site has an engine capable of making enough power to require that extent of modification.

I hope you get it all sorted quickly and start enjoying it. Its a shame that you have had the issues thus far.

Further more, if you are intending to strip it and redo anything, there are plenty of floors in the head department, that will yield some nice gains. You'll also be able to increase the detonation threshold substantially.


I have also today shared the pics with Abe and he says that the blockguard is actually a good thing, and that without it "the cylinders do walk around a bit" if you have >180hp.
He also says that the cracking is common, but it is due to fatigue and happens over time, particularly on turboed Suzukis because the engine torque is pulling against the back engine mount. In other words the damage was probably already done on my block from it previously being campaigned hard!
He says that a blockguard works well, if fitted correctly, and that Pete is very thorough in this work.

He also said that it is hard to pick up the cracking in that location before it is serious, and because the G13B are roughly cast they cannot be x-rayed, only visually checked with crack-test dye.
And therefore it is important to get a non-turbo, non-distressed block as a replacement.

So next question should it be o-ringed or not?! 8-[

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