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 Post subject: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:58 pm 
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Location: Finland
Hi all,

We are investigating to build N/A1400cc racing motor and main idea is M13A block/crank, 81mm pistons and M16A head. Is there something what makes this compo not possible? We need to know also that what are M13A vs.M16a block height difference and how long is original M13a conrod. Looks like that M16a block can be drilled to 81mm pistons but can we drill M13A also?

Any help is fully appreciated.

Cheers,

Keke


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:05 am 
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Keke wrote:
Hi all,

We are investigating to build N/A1400cc racing motor and main idea is M13A block/crank, 81mm pistons and M16A head. Is there something what makes this compo not possible? We need to know also that what are M13A vs.M16a block height difference and how long is original M13a conrod. Looks like that M16a block can be drilled to 81mm pistons but can we drill M13A also?

Any help is fully appreciated.

Cheers,

Keke


are you limited to 1400cc? just to let you know the M series is about 15-17kg heavier than the G series. I remember weighing up an M16a and was 68-70kg versus the G16b and G13bb at 52-53kg. A g13b can be taken to 76.75mm for 1397cc.


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:38 am 
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Location: Finland
Our class is max.1400cc. Weight is known but G13B are getting rare and M-engines are more available. Best G13B, what is re-sleeved to 1.4l is making +200hp on here, very expensive engine. Toyota 1.4l 4a-ge conversions makes 185-205hp. Why M-engine is heavier?


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:12 am 
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I have a feeling the JWRC Suzuki M's used the 1.3 head with the 1.6 block...it may be worth investigating port size, valve gear of 1.3 head.

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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:36 pm 
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The m13 has a very favourable bore to stroke ratio, shame it's 1328cc and not 1299.9 or less for those of us stuck with a very strict under 1300cc class limit.

It's possible the chamber volume is less on the m13 head and also the fact that there is a non vvti version.

I also don't see why the m13 should be much heavier than the twincam g13b.


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Dont know is head having better porting or not but M13A/M16a has same valves, intake valve 30mm and exhaust 25mm but for M13A is also available 6mm valve stem, some models are having 5.5mm. M16A is having 5.5mm


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:47 am 
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M series engine have more meat, are a longer block
with bigger bore spacings and thick steel sleeves.
I had weighed the bare blocks un-opened engines
the M13A was at least 15kg heavier than a g13b
The ports on the M13A are smaller than the M16A
Get an M16A then use an M13a crank 69.5mm
as the bore sizes are the same for M13,15 & 16

The bigger ports also have same width surround
of extra meat for further porting that an M13a
cant match so worthwhile combination.


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:28 am 
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Thanks. So m16a head is way to go, like we expected. If calculated right, m13a crank and longer rods 150mm or even longer would give 1.85 rod-stroke ratio.m13a engines are much more cheaper than m16 engines. So from budget side, m13 block,81mm pistons and m16a head would be best?


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:24 am 
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As l said above....would do more homework on m13 head as that is what the jwrc na 1.6 use as l have seen on spec sheets. Bigger ports dont necessarily equate to the best power curve.

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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:10 am 
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Same issue with Toyota 4a-ge engines. Small port head is better.so m13a motor with m13a head would be maybe best. Bored to 81mm, I assume that we can use m18 head gasket. Hole is 83mm on that. Is there available any detailed sheets about jwrc engine.?


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:03 am 
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Try Monstersport in Milton Keyes UK...

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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:39 pm 
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Asked help and they offered special short stroke Monster S1600 engine. Need to make special crank and rods. I believe price is majestic...not an option.


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:00 pm 
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I agree on port sizing but the M13a ports a weeny, the M16a are needed for the extra capacity of the 1600 which would equate to a good balance for high rpm 1400cc.

Even with short stroke big bores you can see bike engines like the zx14 going to sizes very similar to the 1600 head by well known ZX14 tuners using CNC and hand porting.

The 1300cc head would need very careful attention for max flow figures while the 1600 head is already mostly there. I would like to get confirmation the 1300cc head is used instead of the 1600 head for the 230hp 1.5L M series that was used in the Rallye Ignis.


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:08 pm 
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OK, so we know the bore size and spacing is the same between the m13,15,16 but is the block height the same? and for those of us comtemplating building an under 1600cc engine I would presume an ignis m15 bored out to 80.5mm should be better than using the longer stroke m16?


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:08 pm 
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And head gasket would be from M18. Bore is 83mm on that, so it would be only 2mm bigger than our 81mm bore.


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:15 pm 
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Dattman wrote:
OK, so we know the bore size and spacing is the same between the m13,15,16 but is the block height the same? and for those of us comtemplating building an under 1600cc engine I would presume an ignis m15 bored out to 80.5mm should be better than using the longer stroke m16?


From my reading on the SSOC.uk site, the blocks are all the same in the M series. It had got me thinking about a Late Model Swift for IP here with the big bore 1.9L to keep up with the U2L crowd. Problem was bank/budget said NO!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_M_engine

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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:44 pm 
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If Blake says the M13a head is used it could have more meat and although it would be expensive to port by a pro you might want to carefully port the head yourself if they are common and try and copy the smallish SR16ve ports which are slightly bigger but similar in shape.

1397cc is only bored 2mm m13a sleeves grouted bottom end


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:27 pm 
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Head will be anyway ported by specialist. So M13A would be option and more available. You are right, 80mm bore. 80mm pistons can be found for example Suzuki GSX-R bikes. I assume that M13a can be bored to 80mm that there is enough wall in sleeves? Nobody hasnt yet give detailed answer that is block height same or different?


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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:01 pm 
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You need to measure very carefully the m series sleeve as it is not parallel on the outside ,They have very thin walls when you get approx 25mm below deck height, I doubt very much that you can overbore the std M series sleeve.Of course you can fit a good quality aftermarket sleeve such as Darton and overbore it,by putting a much larger step on the bottom of the aftermarket sleeve this may also help with the problem of the sleeves sinking in the block when the engine gets hot.

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 Post subject: Re: M13A/M16A block height and M13A conrod length for racing?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:40 pm
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Hello all. Have been doing chassis lately so just coming back to this topic. Do we know that are those S1600 engines having new cylinder sleeves or are they bored to 81mm even sleeves are parallel like earlier post is saying.?


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