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 Post subject: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Hey Guys, need some advice please on what to do in build to get up and running reliably. Would like 200hp or am I pushing poo up hill & If so what can be expected?
What I've got and done to date.

MK3 g13b standard internals.(don't know condition haven't seen it run) Alloy flywheel & front pulley.
MK3 ECU with CJ Performance turbo chip.
Standard dizzy , injectors & fuel rail.
T25 turbo internal waste gate, 35mm id tube exhaust manifold & 2" exhaust.
Inlet manifold bored to 60mm for SR20 T/B or can reuse standard.
Standard Cappuccino fuel pump.
Toyota AE71 alloy radiator
450 X 300 X 76MM Intercooler 2.5"in/out lets. Available on ebay??

Please advise what's still needed or should be changed.
If the engine is nfg, then I will rebuild with Vitara pistons & beam rods etc.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:44 am 
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You will be pushing poo up hill trying to 200hp with that setup.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:11 am
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Location: Aruba
Yo won't go to 200hp with that setup.
Use standard ecu. Piggyback like apexi. Bigger injectors. Good fpr. Good fuel pump. Standard compression and internals. Water and meth injection. Boost it to 18psi.

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley,Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi.
2001-Altezza AS200.-sold
2003-EVO7 GT-A


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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Location: ACT
The setup you've described is pretty much the standard for low boost setups built in the last decade or so. Good for about 100kw ATW.

The main limiting factor is the standard ECU, but your turbo choice and standard injectors won't help you either.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Hey Guys, thanks for the feed back. I thought it would be easy but now stuck between a rock and hard place. Throw more money and time or dump the turbo?

The VF25 turbo was what was on the 660 cappo pushing just over 50kw atw, so decided to re use it on the G13b conversion to try keep costs down and the kids fed.

I think either way I still need to buy a better fuel pump than the cappo one, FPR and probably a fuel rail. Any suggestions on size/flow etc.
In doing that and going back to the standard T/B at say 10/12 lbs. boost, would it be reliable and how much better than a standard N/A g13b?

Appreciate all the help and advice.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 am
Posts: 3493
Location: Brisbane
The std mk3 fuel rail and injectors are enough for approx 180hp atw, with your small turbo on say 10psi you should make 130- 140hp or thereabouts atw which will be plenty in a cappa, i doubt your diff or jimny gearbox are going to take much more than that anyway.To get that sort of power na would cost you a fortune in comparison and it would be a bi**h to drive because of the powerband.
Upgrade the fuel pump to a walbro replacement in tank pump(i think theres one around 225 litres per minute) and I would fit a aftermarket fuel pressure reg after the std reg(so you can leave fuel rail unmodified) then take car to a dyno and check afr.
If the vf25 has a triangular shaped mounting flange to the ex manifold you may find a wrx tdo4l turbo will bolt right in its place and these can be bought secondhand very cheaply (under $200)and are a excellent size for the g13b motor, if you post some pics of your vf25 turbo ,particularly the exhaust flange and dump pipe flange we can advise if its same bolt up as the wrx turbo, I am only mentioning the wrx turbo as a easy option upgrade should you feel the need for more power later on.
The big debate over turbo vs na usually comes down to cost vs bang for buck and the turbo wins every time on both counts, with your little turbo there will be no lag so it will be like driving a na car with more power and torque anyway .
I have have done loads of gti turbo conversions over the years and this budget route you are taking is well proven and totally reliable, at the 140hp atw level you should not encounter any problems with reliability.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Dave, thanks for all the info.

A few months back there where new parts for sale on Redlinegti, one of your fuel rails and FPR you used to sell few years back. I sent you a post asking if it was a rising rate type as seller did not Know. I may have sent to incorrect place as I didn't get a reply, so didn't buy it. Any way I'll start looking again for bits recommended, or maybe you have them for sale?

The VF25 turbo apparently comes of a Legacy and is a 3 bolt type. However the manifold I'm making is a T4 type and I am making an adaptor plate drilled and tapped with studs to go 3 bolt onto T4 flange. Plan is to change to 4 bolt turbo later only if required.

Many plans once running, but for now just want to drive it again.
Wrx rear diff
2nd engine to build a performance turbo engine
Bigger rotors & calipers
Adjustable shocks
Gear set for ratio change in Jimny box or sequential


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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:57 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
Ok its same as wrx turbo flange ,so I dont think i would bother with the four bolt flange unless you really want a garret, theres loads of options available in the vf series three bolt turboes, like i mentioned a late model wrx td04L is an ideal turbo for this first stage,low boost set up.If you build a good engine later and upgrade to a stand alone ecu and sort out the fueling a td04L will make approx 18 psi boost so is even good for later too.
You dont really want a rising rate reg,you want a reg that rises the same amount as the boost, sometimes called a 1:1 rising rate, so if you are running 10 psi boost the reg will rise from say 45 base pressure to 55psi.so a sard reg or any decent efi 1:1 rate reg is what your looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Many thanks Dave,

I tried to stay away from stand alone ECU as I don't know enough about them and high total costs involved. Looks like I will have bite the bullet, swallow my pride, get one and learn quick.

Any suggestions on type/model etc. and what injectors size.

Did see Haltec E8 I think for sale some time back on forum with g13b wiring loom for $800 I recall.
Motec 4 In Perth on Gumtree now @ $1500

Thanks again

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:11 am
Posts: 65
Location: Aruba
My setup is as follows:
Standard unopened mk3 engine (1996).
18 psi from a td04l-13t.
210/340 cams from 3tech.
Cultus intake manifold.
Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator. 1:1
Whalbro fuel pump. 255lph.
Aem water meth injection with 500cc/min nozzle.
3000gt vr4 injectors. These are 360cc/min ( can't remember the pressure for these flow rate)
Old apexi safc to control injectors. Tuned it myself.
Aem wideband to keep afr in check.
Stock ecu.
I'm pretty sure it must be producing around 200hp at the crank.
Acceleration is in my opinion mind boggling. I'm crossing the finishline at the 1/4 mile dragstrip at 106.5 mph.
I'm wanting to raise boost to 20psi.

Car drives like a champ at cruising, acceleration, deceleration and WOT.

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley,Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi.
2001-Altezza AS200.-sold
2003-EVO7 GT-A


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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Thanks for details of your setup, sounds pretty quick and exciting to drive.
I think at this stage I will finish all the mechanical bits, buy the recommended fuel pump, regulator & a rail as that's all needed either way. If I find an stand alone ecu & loom that I can afford before I'm ready for wiring then Ill go that avenue. Google & Redlinegti will help too until back home 5 weeks. If not then will splice the mk3 loom & chipped ecu into cappo, see how it goes and what it can be pushed to safely boost wise. I may be surprised and happy with it for time being until brakes & shocks upgraded.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Hey guys, some more advise regarding ecu's please?
Found new Microtec LT-9C on their web for just over a grand with wiring, igniter's, coil packs plus base map for specific engine.
Also 2nd hand on gummy I think an older LT-10S with same pack etc, plus dash, but off a Toyota 4age for 1100.
Which is the better option and will either one still need to be up graded later if I build a stronger purpose built turbo engine for 200 + HP?
Parts already on order to arrive soon.
BOV
FPR
Walbro FP
Intercooler
If either of the above ecu's are used should the injectors also be upgraded or are they OK for now?

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:07 am 
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Location: Canberra
Avoid

Would suggest adaptronic e420d http://www.adaptronic.com.au/product/e420d/

or perhaps Haltech sprint http://www.haltech.com/platinum-sprint-500/

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Hey Guys,
What are good cams for a turbo set up? Or the standard ones OK.

I bought the engine with gold rocker cover advertised on Redline but doesn't have cams or lifters.

I'm still undecided on which way to go with the turbo chipped ecu or a aftermarket unit. Either option the loom needs to be spliced into the Cappo loom.

Will the turbo chipped ecu be able to run the engine reliably at 200hp, or better to bite the bullet and go for aftermarket ecu now. Cost and the unknown sparky bits is what's holding me up.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:48 am 
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Don't use the standard cams, Cultus cams or BD10's would be fine.

As for the ECU, there is definitely no problem using the Microtech, the new ones with canbus are very good and they have nice cheap datalogging dashes as well, 4age setup is the one to go for and you can even even use a toyota 24tooth dizzy with adapter so you can run crank timing for sequential mode, I've run the old LT10 for years and its been bullet proof, however it doesn't have launch control, flat shift etc that the newer ecu's have.

At the end of the day most of the ECU's at the bottom end of the market are similar in feature sets, find a good tuner and use what ever they are most knowledgeable with, it will save you a lot of time and money if they know the ecu inside out.


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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Thanks for the feed back.
I've been dicking around to long on it, money going out and no joy coming back. Biting the bullet and going for it now.
Put wanted add for cultus manifold, cams, lifters or BD10 cams.
Will order a Microtech LT9C ecu and lambda sensor at end of month or if something better comes up before then will consider it.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:13 am 
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Microtech are about 5-10 years behind the competition. I've got an LT10S and the lack of features and outdated tuning hardware/software is frustrating. Can't fault reliability though.

If I was to update I'd choose Haltech or Adaptronic.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Australia WA
Thanks, you got me going in circles again :?
Are the new microtech's as in the LT9C or LT10C out dated compared to others? Price was the draw card and spec's seemed same to me, but I don't know what to look for in the spec's to what's really needed or not. Will I be wanting to upgrade 6 months down the road as I gain some experience in turning and try get more from the engine?

You wana swap good ecu for dog or kids :wink: I better start selling some stuff off :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:42 pm 
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The latest Microtech models have only really added features that were standard on other ECUs 5 years ago. They still lack features like auto learning (adaptive mapping) and user-friendly tuning/logging software. The only advantage they have is price.

As the saying goes though, an ECU is only as good as the tuner.

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 Post subject: Re: GTI/CAPPO/TURBO
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:50 am 
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Location: Brisbane
Haltech have come a long way in recent years,to the point that if I were to choose between Motec and Haltech I would now choose Haltech,For a cheap option,their sprint 1000 ecu is around $1000 and has very good features, they come with everything enabled, wheras Motec you have to pay to have "extras" turned on.
There are much better ecus from Haltech but the sprint 1000 is enough to run a boosted g13b.
As for microtech I have run a lt8x in my race car for years, apart from the map sensor failing on a regular basis it has been ok ,but it would be one of my last choices if buying new.
Adaptronic are not very tuner friendly as in not too many tuners like to use them, but they have also kept up with the times, their self tune feature works very well and if you plan tuning the car yourself that's probably something to consider(pretty sure all the better quality ecus can be set up to self tune)

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