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 Post subject: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi,

I got hold of a set of Rover K-series 1.4 engine liners.
As standard, they are 87mm OD 75mm ID. In order to fit this bad boys, I will need to machine flats to it.
From my CAD drawing, it will be 1.5mm either side for 2&3 cylinder and 1.5mm 1&4.
A good thing about this liner is cheap and already 75mm. So I can fit Vitara pistons straight away.

As it is, I can get them fitted to my engine for boxes of chocolate.

Should I go ahead with it?
By the way, std liners are £20 each and if I can use their pistons. I can bore out to 80mm. But 2mm either side will be too thin?

In put from boosted specialist is very much needed in this subject!
Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 am
Posts: 3493
Location: Brisbane
I have just fitted 81mm OD liners and bored to 78mm so only 1.5 mm wall ,Ive gone as low as 1mm wall in the past on hi boost, with no bore issues so i dont think theres too much of a problem,the outside of the steel liner is still fully enclosed in the alloy jacket anyway.
I have a good freind who fitted nickerseal alloy liners into a swft bock but the engines never been run since he did it so cant say how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:39 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi,

Thanks Dave, as I said I will be using K-series cast iron liners.
They are 87mm so I will need to get flat machined so narrowest will be 2mm.
I think 1.8 and 2.0 Turbo uses same liner and have issues like cracking in heavy boost.
So, I think I will max go to 78mm pistons or something like that size. Even 78mm is 1440cc, so it will be a good size engine.

Should I just ask them to put block in an oven and liners outside cold temp?

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 1154
Location: Melbourne
Sounds like an interesting option, just wondering if you offset 1 and 4 bores out 2mm would it cause any issues anywhere? as then 3 and 4 can be placed to suit better leaving more meat on
all bores and since you are going big slugs 1mm offset combustion chambers shouldnt be a big deal to overall flow.

A g16b turbo big bore 2001 suzuki carry I ran into with older retired aircraft engineer in his 70s supposedly used some king of cro mo 4140 steel pipe to make his sleeves he went on about it but I lost track of so many things he was saying, it was over my head with wives patiently waiting aside talking about weather & plants and I was just happy to see his hotted up carry park next to mine at campbellfield shopping centre. Next time I catch him I will record using my phone his words. The steel had to be a certain hardness but was better than cast iron and cheaper than special billet sleeves.

here is some info i found....on rotec using 4140

http://www.rotecradialengines.com/specs.htm

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ge ... um-213872/

interesting use of ceramic sleeves for oil industry
http://www.techsunchina.com/product.asp?id=881


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:59 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Hamilton NZ
Some good K Series info here http://kengine.dvapower.com/
Used their header design as a starting point..

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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi,

I have checked few bits and bobs.
K-sereis 1.4 engine used to come with 2 different types of liners but both of the 75mm bore.
Both of them is 82mm OD at lower section but top has 87mm.
Older liner has 87mm bit which is 6mm from top may suit better than the other type which has almost approx.40mm from top is 87mm.

Attachment:
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Small lip liner is stronger one as my friend has been running "BIG" boost with it. I think he said almost as much as 30psi. Bigger lip is the one you can buy on ebay.

What I would like to know is that which type will be better for my application?
Bigger lip, I will have to machine a lot and will take out block deeper but it will have a good location and hopefully strong top end. But these are poorer quality material compares to small lip liners.

If I go for small lip ones, I can only get them in 2nd hand.

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 1154
Location: Melbourne
Renault people on the Sierra, 807 gordini and later Fuego liners
always re-use them by rotating them 90 degree to use the side
that hasnt had the side loading ovaling them up.
If you can bore them definitely get second hand ones and go
for the true and tried method if your friend is getting 30psi out
of them as there is no use re-inventing the wheel unless you are
planning to run less boost and the new ones suffice.
There must be a reason no one uses the weaker ones though
and are available new from ebay or other sites.

this is very interesting, I was suggesting to use another method
of high tensile steel pipe but if this works & is cheap then presto!


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Thanks for the info d & blake,

I shall take to Nissan machine shop and ask them to do magic on them!

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi,
I took 1 liner to show it to a machinist.
Now, I need to know the depth/height of the std Vitara piston in G13B fitted.
The reason for this is to machine off liners flat once all of them is fitted to gain flat mating surface for the cylinder head and a gasket to the block.

Also, I know that Vitara piston will give you 7:1ish CR. So by machining block and so on, I can increase it to more like 8.5:1. So call ideal CR for a boost engine.

I'm hoping to buy 76mm (+0.040")pistons for this build.

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 1154
Location: Melbourne
ycp vitara spec sheet compression height 28.3 mm (± 0.1)
but you best get the pistons first you want to use to
make sure as they are also needed before boring your
liners and also honing of course all final sizing.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2130983


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:35 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:00 am
Posts: 1526
Location: Londoninium
Atchi, dont guess, measure. If necessary Purchase the correct parts and have it all measured, thats the best way to be sure and not waste time, effort and money

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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi d & JP,

I have Vitara pistons already but not 76mm.
I have to work out many things so that I can draw CAD to tell boys what I want them to do.
Also, I'm using non standard liner. I need to do as much research as possible.
The liner I have little lip on the top as if it used as o-ring. I will need to machine them off to create perfect mating surface and so on.

I know now that Vitara pistons have 1mm shorter so this is why they will give 7ish CR.

I have now ordered 76mm and I shall try to dis-assemble my engine and do what I can.

Thanks for the help on the info boys!

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Posts: 1154
Location: Melbourne
Attachment:
8540119722_bea19fac83.jpg
8540119722_bea19fac83.jpg [ 77.95 KiB | Viewed 8112 times ]

Atchi which one did you get left or right? (sorry but wasnt clear to me which is which)


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi d,

I'm going for the right side one.
It will be good for 30 psi so they say. Top of this liner has thin ring which is about 1mm high. I can try use it as a built in O-ring but I like my head gasket to blow instead of my pistons to break.

So, I have to take my spare G13B engine and measure depth as standard. Then I shall start to draw on CAD what to do. I have G16 16v Vitara pistons so I should be able to check and compare with G13B pistons for any significant difference... I guess.

If anyone can enlighten me with other info, I would very much happy to hear.


Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 1154
Location: Melbourne
would be interesting to see how your friend dealt with the 2 gaps/grooves on the bottom of the right liner (the better ones you clarified for me) I wonder if he machined this area and what happened to these grooves or just slit in, did he use some kind of bond apart from heat and shrink etc


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:17 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi d,

I'm still in research and collecting part stage.

I do have 2 set of std 2nd hand Vitara pistons.
So, I did some measuring and compare it to std G13B.

Here goes the result.
Left is Vitara
Attachment:
miniswift.1.jpg
miniswift.1.jpg [ 112.95 KiB | Viewed 8108 times ]


Piston is almost 1mm difference.
Attachment:
miniswift.2.jpg
miniswift.2.jpg [ 110.62 KiB | Viewed 8108 times ]


Vitara piston has 5.5mm -1mm ruler thickness. So it is 4.5mm deeper than std.
Attachment:
miniswift.3.jpg
miniswift.3.jpg [ 70.11 KiB | Viewed 8111 times ]


Liner length is 132mm length, so I will need to make it shorter, I think.
Attachment:
miniswift.4.jpg
miniswift.4.jpg [ 121.2 KiB | Viewed 8108 times ]


Just checked if piston goes in OK or not as it is!
Attachment:
miniswift.5.jpg
miniswift.5.jpg [ 124.04 KiB | Viewed 8108 times ]


It is very good fit as it was pressurised when I installed piston into K-liner.

I only have 1 liner now, so I will need ask my mate to dig out rest of them!

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 1154
Location: Melbourne
looking good!!

I was thinking of these Darton ones but for price yours are good
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Darton-Stock- ... 43aa6e0edb


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi,

I thought I shall post what's going on.
Since last up date, I have been busy boy doing a lot of other things.
1st of all, I had a ride in 74mm bore Gti turbo which produce 370bhp.
My mate John has took me out in his beast which has traction control by mean of controling boost for each gears.

So, I thought if he can do this with standard bore and many up rated bits. I should try his methods first.
Mean while, my other mate who had a ride himself was shocked/hooked with gti again. He used to own 4 Gti in many different spec and he says that it was faster then his Pulsar Gti-R 4WD with a lot of boost.
So, my mate Dave and I decided to make what we can by doing research agian.

So, our finding as follows!
"Block guards" I know everyone is against it but we will be doing this with lower part grouting it first. Then CNC machine block and fit CNC machined insert fitted. then re bore it to 75mm Vitara pistons to be fitted after 1mm is machined off the deck height.

I still have this K-series liners to have a fun with so I shall keep inform you boys.

I'm aiming for reliable 280Bhp with Justy AWD set up in my mk1 Gti.

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:37 pm
Posts: 24
Location: ireland
Hi, i am trying to get this done aswell fo a n/a rally engine i have got a set of the same liners as the right with the big lip but was thinking of geting them turned down to just leave 3mm of a lip. Im hopeing to go with 78mm pistons from srd has any one successfully done this and what about a corret heat gasket for 78mm pistons i cant see a listen for one on ther site.


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 Post subject: Re: Rover K-series liners into G13B
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:44 am
Posts: 187
Hi,

I think you will better off sending it to surface ground to get 1.5 mm flat on both side of 2 & 3 for location propose. But When you think about it, installation of liners might be an issue with this.
Gasket wise, you will need to get in touch with after market manufacturer. I would love to have 1 made for 76/77mm set up.

d,

Grooves are for o-rings in K-series engine as they are in the coolant and not leaking to below deck(oil).

Cheers
Atchi


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