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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:01 pm 
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fearlesss wrote:
Your having a big dig at Dan and Dave setup for a car that's on it's 3rd engine


Sorry, who is having a dig? I just re-read the thread and couldn't see where anyone was talking down Dan and/or Dave. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:24 pm 
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[YLD80Y] wrote:
fearlesss wrote:
Your having a big dig at Dan and Dave setup for a car that's on it's 3rd engine


Sorry, who is having a dig? I just re-read the thread and couldn't see where anyone was talking down Dan and/or Dave. :?


Edited my post, if a mod wants to delete your more than welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Maybe you might want to edit with the details of your engine , it might help considering it did a low 12?

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:40 am 
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Borg Warner turbo thing noted, thanks.

Another thing I forgot to ask was how big can I make the bores? I'd really like to go to 77 or 78 mm though I doubt it's practical.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:39 pm 
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I run 76mm never had a problem, but 77mm I think will be pushing it, look for a g13bb block they seem to have the best machining from the factory straightest bore, sonic test it and you will know what you got to work with.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Zuboo wrote:
I run 76mm never had a problem, but 77mm I think will be pushing it, look for a g13bb block they seem to have the best machining from the factory straightest bore, sonic test it and you will know what you got to work with.


Anyone have a headplate for boring and honing?

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ARP Headstuds (undercuts from a BMW M50 are best and direct fit)

can someone elaborate here?


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Bore wise, obviously the larger you go, the less meat you have in the liners. From memory we are using a 77mm piston.

fearlesss - don't know what your issue is, nor do I care to be honest.

Since you bring it up though, I feel I should address it, and correct you in the process. I have always been upfront about any failures, so lets clear it up.

1 engine failure!! That is it, a single failure which I've mentioned on here why it failed also.

The current motor, never missed a beat, and never failed. The head had a leak from a corroded water jacket, which could not be repaired. I'm sure I have photo's somewhere. Since we were doing a new head, and I wanted to freshen up the box as its never been apart since it was built by suzi(fyi), the engine was removed. The decision was made to strengthen the block while its apart, as we intend to push somewhat more than the current hp and boost it see's(~290hp@all four, 15psi).
Will@JHH had the block cnc machined to accommodate a custom cnc block guard. There are also some other things we are doing to the bottom end to add some strength due to the rpm it see's. There are some enhancements being made to the head also, but the point I'm making here, is we are reusing the pistons/rods/crank/block/cams etc etc as it never failed.

As for you thinking I'm having a dig at Dan/Dave. Yes we have had many moments when we have disagreed, and probably just as many where we have agreed. I've commended their achievements many times also, so don't turn this into something it is not.
We are all passionate about what we do, and since we achieve our results with different approaches, of course opinions are going to clash. There is never a one way approach to doing things, as there is always a compromise depending on the intended purpose. I compromise power below 4k as I feel that is the best approach. The results however speak for themselves. Look at the time sheets and dyne charts, you'll see that Dave has a setup that works quite well. Ours is very different and as its obvious, is not a number one priority in life, hence lengthy delays between results, however, if you look beyond the timeframes and whatever grievance you have, you'll clearly see that our method works incredibly well.

Billzila - my apologies for the spam in the thread. You asked for opinions, I gave mine and others have given theirs. Its up to you, to decide what you want from that, and go from there. There are many ways to achieve the results, so take the time to analyze as much info as possible and build it to suit your specific requirements.

If its a circuit car, as I believe it is, IMO the first thing you need to decide is the operating rpm band required in order to choose the specific components. If you do the research, you'll find that every successful small capacity turbo charged circuit car, runs a much larger turbo and higher boost threshold than most of the internet mechanics would believe is possible. A current reference would be the Sierra Sierra Time Attack Evo, it runs a 2.16litre motor with a 1000hp turbocharger, yet is responsive enough to be devastatingly quick.

d wrote:
Zuboo wrote:
I run 76mm never had a problem, but 77mm I think will be pushing it, look for a g13bb block they seem to have the best machining from the factory straightest bore, sonic test it and you will know what you got to work with.

We run 77mm, however I agree it is pushing it.

Anyone have a headplate for boring and honing?

Quote:
ARP Headstuds (undercuts from a BMW M50 are best and direct fit)

can someone elaborate here?

We run 77mm pistons, however it is the largest I'd consider safe.

Call a few engine shops in Melb, surely someone down there has a torque plate available for the G13B.

An undercut stud, runs a smaller shaft diameter than the thread diameter, it allows for a more consistent stretch load along the stud shaft.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Ta for the info.
I'd like to run 77mm pistons as I'd like that extra 90cc and I can run in the two litre division. The slightly larger engine also makes it slight easier to get a turbo working with it.
I'd like usable power from 5,000 rpm to 9,000 rpm, and I will be limiting the torque (by means of varying the boost) to 250 ft-lbs. So as soon as the revs get high enough for it to make 250 ft-lbs the ECU will control the boost to keep a very flat torque curve. That of course means a bit of calibration on an engine dyno to make a suitable map, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:32 pm 
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Zuboo wrote:
I run 76mm never had a problem, but 77mm I think will be pushing it, look for a g13bb block they seem to have the best machining from the factory straightest bore, sonic test it and you will know what you got to work with.



What's the G13BB block out of? Has DMW or the usual suspects got any?


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:09 pm 
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the g13bb is out of the carry van (~2000) or the jimny , would have to check my stock at work when i return next week.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:03 pm 
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It has different webbing as well. Suzuki auto have one in stock 6 months ago but graham would not give is to me. :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Bill-77mm bore will give you a cyl wall thickness of less than 1.5mm(thats in the steel part of the liner)of course the alloy jacket that is cast around the steel sleeve would add some strength.
Out of about ten g13b and bb blocks I had sonic tested two were considered straight enough(steel liner)to bore to 76mm, so be very careful,most of the steel inserts are bored offset!!.
Of course you can bore out the std steel liner altogether and fit a oversize liner in its place, then the limiting factor is the distance between bores and finding a head gasket that you can use with the 77-78mm bores.I am currently looking at removing the whole inner section of the block and fitting liners out of a suzuki liana (78mm)these are a wet liner only located at the bottom of the block.
I am building a 1.2 (just under) for exactly the same reason you are to go under 2litre with the turbo factor.
The best turboes Ive had experience with are the IHI twin scroll range vf38 -vf44,these are the very latest technology turboes ,twin scroll,titanium shafts and impellors,advanced impellor designs.I have run a 38,39,42 and 44 on my 1.3 engines and and although they do run out of power around 250-270hp they can produce power as low as 2700rpm and dont drop off even at 9000rpm, they are easily the best for producing your flat tourqe curve ,I will have a look see if I have my last dyno sheet from the black gti I used to race.
At mt cotton with the vf42 I could launch in 2nd gear and hold second for the entire run thats how wide the tourqe band was!!.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Thanks again gents.
If I need to fit aftermarket sleeves then so be it.
None of this is going to happen soon, I'm just doing research. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:55 am 
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Thanks fellas for the info on the m50 studs anyone know some for the soch 16v heads?

DMWDave thank you for letting us know the VF4x turbos are the ones to look for
it guys like you that make a difference to these overlooked engines.
78mm full steel sleeve from M series is an awesome idea. Will you suggest a
deck closing laser cut section at the top of the block to get tig welded then
bored to suit the M series liners?

On the g13bb engine, I thought they are not dissimilar to the g13b bottom end?


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Well the wet liners in a m series block are pressed into place at the bottom of the block(block is heated in a oven and sleeves put in freezer,I am yet to take my g13b block and the M18 block to the machine shop for their opinion but I cant see why it wont work,the M series engines dont have a block guard and Im not thinking of using one on this engine either.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:59 pm 
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dmwdave wrote:
Well the wet liners in a m series block are pressed into place at the bottom of the block(block is heated in a oven and sleeves put in freezer,I am yet to take my g13b block and the M18 block to the machine shop for their opinion but I cant see why it wont work,the M series engines dont have a block guard and Im not thinking of using one on this engine either.


Well hurry up then Dave, I'm waiting!
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Another possible solution is to use the taller G16 block with a custom crank. This block is taller than the G13 with the potential of a superior rod ratio. The bores are already supported at the top. The bore is bigger std. at 75mm and can be over bored to 77mm.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:24 pm 
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Forged billet cranks are quite pricey these days when the gti crank is good enough.
The g16 has different mains and the only way to make it work would be to use
the right honda crank machined down to meet the stroke required for race class.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:24 am 
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The rod ratio isn't a problem as it'll have a 61 mm stroke. The closed bores might be of interest though. Does the G13B head bolt onto it? But the G10 crank won't fit it ... ?


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:39 am 
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Hi guys, reading this thread has me a bit worried. Although ive done about 15,000 miles since my rebuild, it has a block guard fitted. It was bought from bigbear from OCC. I know that after the engine shop fitted it they skimmed the block, maybe this helped?

I've only ever ran 1bar max and had no issues, is it running higher boost that makes the blocks crack?


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