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 Post subject: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:21 am 
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Location: Gold Coast
I'm doing some research for the engine I'll be building for one of my racing cars, and it'll be a G13B block & head with a G10 crank so about 1050 cc.
What is done with the block to make it take a fair bit of boost? It'll be running on E85 fuel and around 30 psi boost, up to about 9,000 rpm.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:00 pm 
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bahh bill , i got shelves and shelves of blocks , just do what everyone else does and just run it until it self destructs and build another , lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Thanks, but I build engines so they don't break. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
Hi Bill,
Do NOT get talked into a block guard every one Ive seen used on a g13b block has had issues ,I split a block completely apart at the bottom of the head studs on the dyno using a block guard!!.If you cut a g13b block across a cylinder you will see that the outer skin of the block is very thin,transferring the cylinder movement pressures to the outside walls of the block is not something it was intended for, I wouldnt put any dowels down the water jackets either.
Fill the lower section of the block with block grout,up to the water pump gallery, this definately helps hold the cyl sleeves in place.Use arp head studs and a O ringed block with a decent head gasket.I think youve already seen my crank main cap straps ,very simple to do and Ive never had any crank brg issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Location: Gold Coast
Thanks, Dave.
Yeah I remember talking to you a little about all that, and I suspected that grouting the block would be a good thing as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Lol I was going to say wil at John hill racing has made a nice looking new block guard I think it's mad might run it, I can not remember if he made it after or before they built the last engine. It should solve the problem with cracking the blocks due to the material it's made off and the way it's machined in. Dave and I have most likely been through the most amount of High hp engines than most. I will give you a run down of what's let go.

All engines run grout, o-ringed, good gasket, good rods and pistons, stock crank with strengthened main caps.

1st engine. 280hp
Ran for 3 years, then got a bad batch of fuel interstate, blew between 2 and 3 and took a huge cunck out the head, o-ring, and block.

2nd engine 290hp
Ran for 1 year got pulled down and freshened up during racing break.

3rd engine 275hp
Same block as engine 2 ran for 6 months and cracked the skirt of the side of the piston, replaced piston back racing next day.

4th engine 294hp
Same block from engine 2 ran for 2 years and blew head gasket, I was having a boost control issue while racing at the time and i should have stopped and looked at it more than I did, boost control line burnt through in a small area and boosted to the moon 36- 37 psi

5th engine 289hp
Lasted 3 months don't know what caused it, cracked a piston ring, could have been fuel or tuning issue it poped coming out of hungry at lakeside and the tank was low, most likely fuel surge.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Location: Gold Coast
Ta Zuboo - At least none of the blocks failed. ;)
I'll be using good rods and pistons, they won't be a problem at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:32 am 
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Like I posted Dave and I are harder on them than most, they don't get treated nice like a street engine, it's 100% all the time, and running on the edge of what pump fuel can do. The biggest problem is the boars moving around, which is why Dave said you need a good gasket. When we have pulled some of the engines down you can see the gasket has been crushed when the boar has moved. I rev mine to 9000 and 28 psi no problems with crank, on daves smaller 1.2 engine it was taken to 9500 if I remember correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:16 am 
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Ta, I'll be running E85 so a bit more margin that with regular petrol.
I've never o-ringed an engine before so it'll be an experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:18 am 
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Zuboo wrote:
The biggest problem is the boars moving around, which is why Dave said you need a good gasket.


Sounds like you need a good fence! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
I rev mine to 9000 and 28 psi no problems with crank, on daves smaller 1.2 engine it was taken to 9500 if I remember correctly.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

I totally agree with what DMWDave said about;
- no block guard or dowelling
-grouting the block
- o-ring too

See my build thread- viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39292&hilit=street+tough&start=140 - pics of blockguard fitted on pg4 and pics of cracked block on pg8!!! #-o #-o

I would also suggest starting with a fresh understressed Cino block, not a GTi block that has been thrashed for decades and therefore may have some metal fatigue.. It is possible to get the block ultrasonically tested for cylinder wall thickness too. (this was all done for me by DMWDave too).

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:39 pm 
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i believe jhh engineering machine the block and the block guard to suit . i've personally never liked them myself . i also believe they no longer o'ring the block or head , as they have bought the mls gasket from me quite a few times now.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:03 pm 
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The gasket you sell looks the way to go, it should also help with the movement issue as well, but have not tested them yet to give my opinion. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:13 pm 
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[YLD80Y] wrote:
Zuboo wrote:
The biggest problem is the boars moving around, which is why Dave said you need a good gasket.


Sounds like you need a good fence! :lol:

:lol: :lol:

Good old iPad auto correct, pisses you off and makes you look dumb some times, and saves your ass others :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:03 am 
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Location: Gold Coast Qld
Really depends on your power levels and the key thing is the tune.

Almost every engine failure on here has been tune related. Running small turbo's in low efficiency areas, with insufficient intercooling are the key contributors to the issue.

Generic blok guards are rubbish. They do not fit to he individual block correctly and put unequal loading on individual cylinders, hence the failures that people have mentioned.

The block guard mentioned that Will@JHH(owner btw, John is retired), is specifically made to suit the block, and the deck of the block is cnc machined to accommodate it.

As Dave and Dan have mentioned, it's quite a simple task to extract hp from these engines.
Making them live is no different to any other high output small capacity engine.

Keep everything cool, don't skimp on components and you'll be half way there.

I cannot put enough emphasis on choosing a turbocharger and intercooler to suit your hp goals correctly. This alone will keep your maintenance level down. Decide what hp you require, then build the package around it. You are far better off with a turbo with a higher boost threshold, and a meaty (4000-5000rpm) powerband, than ringing the neck out of a small turbo, that's well beyond its effective efficiency range. While some people consider the setup on ITSMAD as laggy, reality is that its output is directed at 5000rpm+ powerband, however it still makes more peak power than a stock gti by 4000rpm. On the road, it has instant response.

Depending on your hp goals, my advise is simple.

MLS Headgasket (O-Ringing is a waste of time and a bandaid fix to a poor tune)
ARP Headstuds (undercuts from a BMW M50 are best and direct fit)
Stock crank
Lightest/strongest rods you cn afford
9.0:1 comp forgies (higher if on e85)
Headwork (depends on hp goals, but done correctly is the only way to increase volumetric efficiency enough to get a wide powerband, to give you an idea, you can see down the ports of our head if you put a stock manifold on)
Stock crank
Stock mains(steel options and ARP if it's extreme)
Etc etc

Best option since you are in SEQ, go see Will@JHH, he's a perfectionist, very intelligent and a great bloke.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:48 am 
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Location: Gold Coast
Thanks, but I build my own engines and they seem to do a pretty good job as nobody has ever beaten mine.
I've not decided what turbo to get yet because I haven't finalised all the details and I don't really know enough about them. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:26 am 
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Location: Gold Coast Qld
I'm not saying not to build it, I'm pointing you in the only direction I'd take for a machinist in SEQ. You can easily go overboard with modifications that are detrimental to reliability and power production.

Depending on your planned rpm use and hp goals, turbo wise I'd look at one of th new Borg Warner EFR's. The transient response and boost recovery is significantly better than anything on the market. It's a shame that currently they are not producing the twin scroll housings for the smaller framed units.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:01 pm 
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he said he was going to use the g10 crank , not the gti crank so leaving it stock may not be the best idea ... i would probably look at getting it shotpeened and nitrided..

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:56 pm 
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........


Last edited by fearlesss on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo G13B block, how to prepare for lots of boost?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:54 pm 
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A person would be very foolish to take information from only one source wouldn't they?

Let him give his oppinion it seems to be held in a lot higher regard in other forums.

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