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 Post subject: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Posts: 25
Location: Finland
Hi,

I have a N/A mk1 GTi engine fitted in a Mini which already have following modifications done:

slightly ported head
+12deg and +1mm cams
adjustable cam gears
38mm gsxr-itbs
edis4
Megasquirt 2v3
4-2-1 exhaust
Supra 360cc injectors
Impreza fuel pump
adjustable FPR
LSD
stock pistons/compression
1 7/8" exhaust
3.52 FD because of the 10" wheels.

It runs well but needs more power and torque hence the reason why I'm looking into adding a turbo. Also, I got few Garrett GT17 turbos to use for this application. Yes, I know it's not the best turbo in the world but to me it's a good starting point considering that those cost me pennies.

My idea is to use mk1 inlet manifold, remove the maf and throttle body and replace it with 48mm throttle body from MG (or similar) as those are cheap and easily available. I just need to make an adapter for it. Hole in the manifold is 42mm so should I enlarge it by few mm's or is it unnecessary?

As aftermarket exhaust manifold won't fit, I've thought about making a a log manifold for the turbo. Should be OK for this application I think?

Cams, should I change to standard ones or are the current +12deg and +1mm cams OK'ish for turbo use with adjustable cam gears? As I really like the sound of them =P

I tend to keep this setup in low boost as if I go high boost (cost) then the gearbox needs upgrading to a bigger one and that just doesn't physically fit. Also as I run 10" wheels there's no way I can get the power down to tarmac with 200+ ponies.

I'll also add the oil cooler but I need to get a 90deg adapter leg so that I can get the sandwich place for the cooler as otherwise there isn't enough space.

Mounting intercooler will be it's own problem as the space is at premium and there's no space in front of the radiator. Maybe will fit over the alternator, dunno yet. Also, exhaust needs to be upgraded to 2" or larger.

So, any ideas or recommendations that is this a good idea or not would be highly valued :)


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:49 pm 
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With the lack of space available, you should consider supercharging with an Aisin AMR500 (or similar).

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Supercharger is a better option, unless you want to do some serious bodywork to the Mini.

If you did turbo, I think the standard TB is 48mm? You can bore it out slightly (to 50-52mm) or use a Nissan SR20 60mm.

Will need a 2.5" exhaust, turbos like to breathe.
Log manifold will be fine if it's all that will fit :P
Cams should be fine, not that im an expert in that field.

Stick with the supercharger for feel good boost and easier installation.

I came across a forum somewhere that is full of minis with G13bs in them....

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:10 pm 
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I do like the supercharger whine a lot and have been toying with that idea but earlier all the SCs that I found were really expensive so I turned my head towards turbos. But isn't that AMR500 a bit too small regarding the air flow? Those are dirty cheap though so I might give them a second chance!

With SC I would get rid of a hassle of making the log manifold but then there would be new challenge of making all the fittings, belt drive and stuff for the SC. Only place where the SC would fit is next to the alternator.

I do have friend who has a turbo'd G13B in a Mini without any bodymods so I know it can be done. It's just a bit tight fit :D Although I don't mind the turbo sticking thru the front grill.

Standard mk1 throttle body is 42mm, at least in my inlet manifolds which I measured yesterday. Mainly the question is that why use 60mm throttle body when the hole in the inlet manifold is 42mm? Also, not much of those sr20 throttle bodies kicking around here hence the 20eur MG throttle body would be better option for me from ebay. That way I can get rid off all the unnecessary stuff from inlet manifold that I don't need with Megasquirt.

howsie, would that site be 16miniforum.co.uk perhaps? :)


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:05 am 
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I made a CAD-model of the AMR500 and test fitted it. There's no way it'd fit over the alternator as I've hoped. It'll need total redesign and even then it'll be a really tight fit if it fits. Will look more into it though.


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Twin AMR300s? :twisted:

A couple of other options:
It might be possible to mount the AMR500 on the gearbox side (space permitting) and run a shaft underneath the inlet manifold across to the belt side of the motor to drive it.
Also look into the factory supercharger from a mini, they mount directly to the inlet manifold.

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:02 pm 
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[YLD80Y] wrote:
Twin AMR300s? :twisted:

A couple of other options:
It might be possible to mount the AMR500 on the gearbox side (space permitting) and run a shaft underneath the inlet manifold across to the belt side of the motor to drive it.
Also look into the factory supercharger from a mini, they mount directly to the inlet manifold.


Wasn't the whole idea to make the installation easier than the turbo and not the other way around? :lol:

I did think about placing it over the gearbox but even though it looks like that there's some free space, placing a supercharger there will take more work than making an exhaust manifold for the turbo. Although I've seen some supercharged Hondas that use long shaft underneath manifold to the belt side which gives some idea.

BMW Minis have the Eaton M45 SC in them and I know one example in UK where it has been used with G13B in a Mini. Guys sand casted their own inlet manifold if I remember correctly. That SC would provide more than enough air which is always nice.

Although I like to build new stuff and something that not everyone has, I think that at the moment I don't have enough time and money on my hands to build a SC system that no-one else has tried before. Unfortunately :-/


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Just stick with the stock throttle body. No need to change it unless you need to re-configure it for space reasons. I'm still running a stock one and pushing over 200hp atw. Plus from memory, Nissan turbo TB are smaller than the non-turbo ones that everyone changes to on their N/A builds. So if they use the smaller one for boost it's good enough for me to do the same.


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:34 am 
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Google "rear mounted turbo"

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:02 pm 
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StinkyWizzleteats wrote:
Just stick with the stock throttle body. No need to change it unless you need to re-configure it for space reasons. I'm still running a stock one and pushing over 200hp atw. Plus from memory, Nissan turbo TB are smaller than the non-turbo ones that everyone changes to on their N/A builds. So if they use the smaller one for boost it's good enough for me to do the same.


Thanks for the info. So the MG's 48mm throttle body would be big enough. That said, I won't keep the standard small mk1 system as I want to get rid of MAF and other stuff that I don't need. Extra space doesn't hurt either.

blake wrote:
Google "rear mounted turbo"


I've seen earlier one example in a Mini and I have to say that that isn't my preferred option. Also, I've no space under the boot because of the silencers and I need the boot space for the longer trips. Running the inlet tubes inside the car doesn't sound very tempting either =P


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:19 am 
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Location: Wellington
blake wrote:
Google "rear mounted turbo"


I considered this for my GTi.

All the tubing ran under the car, as running into the cabin would be a pain to do.
Silencers? Who needs those? :P Sounds like you have one too many anyway!

You could always do a Honda engine conversion like the MightyCarMods boys did. So much power in a little car!

Seeing as you know a turbo mini already, why not copy the way it has been done?

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Posts: 25
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Howsie13 wrote:
blake wrote:
Google "rear mounted turbo"


I considered this for my GTi.

All the tubing ran under the car, as running into the cabin would be a pain to do.
Silencers? Who needs those? :P Sounds like you have one too many anyway!

You could always do a Honda engine conversion like the MightyCarMods boys did. So much power in a little car!

Seeing as you know a turbo mini already, why not copy the way it has been done?


Unfortunately running water-, oil- and intercooler pipes next to the exhaust doesn't sound very good idea to me. Also the IC-pipes wouldn't fit next to the exhaust pipe + gear linkage hence the reason why I wrote about running those inside. I'm already running fuel and brake lines inside as I don't want those to get ground contact again.

What was the reason why you didn't go for the rear turbo setup then?

I previously had one Maniflow silencer but have changed that to twin Supertrapps (mainly for looks :D) and those are a bit lighter too. I need to drive that thing to track and back so it can't be too loud :lol:

Unfortunately I can't get the B16 engine legally under the bonnet in Finland as that's too big in CC and have "too many ponies" :-( Otherwise installing that would have been a no brainer when I started engine doing my engine conversion years a go.

I do have copied some of the ideas from that another Mini but he uses mk2 engine, standard ecu + chip (which I actually bought from this forum), different turbo and radiator setup among other things. Now I can't remember that does he have an IC or not and I don't have any pictures at hand to check it. Haven't actually seen the car in live for several years now.

Regarding the intercooler placement I have though about placing it over the inlet manifold as I already have a hole in the bonnet in that place so I can get fresh air from there.


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:40 am 
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Purtsi wrote:

Unfortunately running water-, oil- and intercooler pipes next to the exhaust doesn't sound very good idea to me. Also the IC-pipes wouldn't fit next to the exhaust pipe + gear linkage hence the reason why I wrote about running those inside. I'm already running fuel and brake lines inside as I don't want those to get ground contact again.


It is in a small car, so it is going to happen. Just looking at the close proximity of the headers and radiator for one thing... It has been done a lot before, you could also run a heat shield to separate the exhaust. Unless you use an expensive water and oil cooled turbo, it will just be oil. Ground contact?! Scary. Solid lines bracket to floor will help prevent that.


Purtsi wrote:
What was the reason why you didn't go for the rear turbo setup then?


I have been busy stopping the engine from leaking oil. It is not entirely off the cards as my turbo build is still some years away yet. I also have more space in the Barina compared to a Mini.

Purtsi wrote:
I previously had one Maniflow silencer but have changed that to twin Supertrapps (mainly for looks :D) and those are a bit lighter too. I need to drive that thing to track and back so it can't be too loud :lol:


Priorities round the wrong way. performance first, looks second. :p

Purtsi wrote:
I do have copied some of the ideas from that another Mini but he uses mk2 engine, standard ecu + chip (which I actually bought from this forum), different turbo and radiator setup among other things. Now I can't remember that does he have an IC or not and I don't have any pictures at hand to check it. Haven't actually seen the car in live for several years now.


Mk2 is not that different that I know of. Why should it affect what you are doing?

Purtsi wrote:
Regarding the intercooler placement I have though about placing it over the inlet manifold as I already have a hole in the bonnet in that place so I can get fresh air from there.


"power bulge" on a Mini could be a good look, even if it does hide a top mount intercooler.

At the end of the day, you are trying to fit a lot into a small space, so there is always going to be clearance or placement issues where you are going to have to compromise somewhere.

My 2cents for all of this, seeing as you have all the supporting mods, just make a log manifold and slap the turbo on the front. Leave the inercooler for later, just make sure you have a good cold air intake and minimise heat soak. Then tune the Megasquirt for boost.

No need to change inlet manifold, TB etc as it is only low boost.

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Howsie13 wrote:

Mk2 is not that different that I know of. Why should it affect what you are doing?

Purtsi wrote:
Regarding the intercooler placement I have though about placing it over the inlet manifold as I already have a hole in the bonnet in that place so I can get fresh air from there.


"power bulge" on a Mini could be a good look, even if it does hide a top mount intercooler.

At the end of the day, you are trying to fit a lot into a small space, so there is always going to be clearance or placement issues where you are going to have to compromise somewhere.

My 2cents for all of this, seeing as you have all the supporting mods, just make a log manifold and slap the turbo on the front. Leave the inercooler for later, just make sure you have a good cold air intake and minimise heat soak. Then tune the Megasquirt for boost.

No need to change inlet manifold, TB etc as it is only low boost.


Mainly I was thinking about TB size difference between mk1 and mk2 as older is few mm smaller. But as I have Megasquirt and other supportive mods I can get rid of the unnecessary ancillaries that are attached to the inlet manifold to keep the things simple tuning wise. Why keep them if I don't need them?

I should get some garage time during the fall so that I can start fabricating the log manifold and see how it turns out. I have a spare engine that I can use as a template and build everything over that so I don't need to take anything off from the car before every part is fabricated.


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:44 am 
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AFAIK you need a MAF or MAP for the ECU along with TPS. Apart from the Cold Start Valve, what is the extra that you do not need? (I know nothing of Megasquirts.....just general ECU requirements)

If the standard TB is good enough for Stinky pushing 200hp, then it would be fine for you.

"howsie, would that site be 16miniforum.co.uk perhaps? :)" - yup probably!

Smaller also means higher flow speed vs volume, as you are only running small boost numbers, speed would be more beneficial over volume? Spool the turbo faster but would run out of oomph at the top end. (depends on efficiency of turbo housing, AFR etc etc)

At the end of the day, everything you have suggested will work.
Turbo + turbo manifold + tune = low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
48mm vs 42mm etc = satisfying the inner geek and will work

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Howsie13 wrote:
AFAIK you need a MAF or MAP for the ECU along with TPS. Apart from the Cold Start Valve, what is the extra that you do not need? (I know nothing of Megasquirts.....just general ECU requirements)

If the standard TB is good enough for Stinky pushing 200hp, then it would be fine for you.

"howsie, would that site be 16miniforum.co.uk perhaps? :)" - yup probably!

Smaller also means higher flow speed vs volume, as you are only running small boost numbers, speed would be more beneficial over volume? Spool the turbo faster but would run out of oomph at the top end. (depends on efficiency of turbo housing, AFR etc etc)

At the end of the day, everything you have suggested will work.
Turbo + turbo manifold + tune = low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
48mm vs 42mm etc = satisfying the inner geek and will work


Yep, it's either MAP or MAF and TPS and I've been previously used MAP and intend to keep it. So it's CSV and MAF thingies that I'm going to say goodbye to. Then I just have to plug all the unnecessary outlets in the inlet manifold that I don't need.

Also, good to hear that not all of my ideas are bad that should be thrown out of the window :D

I just wonder that how long will I keep it in low boost before I'm tempted to make a new bottom end with a lower compression for more boost in mind :D


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:13 pm 
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And here's the (not finished) MG TB setup:

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:30 pm 
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It could be the camera angle but it looks like the TB inlet and outlet size are different? The inlet looks larger than the outlet.....

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 Post subject: Re: low boost mk1 setup in a Mini
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Howsie13 wrote:
It could be the camera angle but it looks like the TB inlet and outlet size are different? The inlet looks larger than the outlet.....


You're right. inlet is 60mm, butterfly is 48mm and outlet is 55mm if I remember correctly. I didn't notice that before I got the TB in my hands.


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